Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Non-Pendraken Stuff => Topic started by: Norm on 28 November 2020, 11:48:20 PM



Title: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Norm on 28 November 2020, 11:48:20 PM
A quick first impressions blog post on the Mortem Et Glorium ancient / medieval rules by Simon Hall and Published by Plastic Soldier Company.

Also a look at the new plastic material 'Ultracast' that PSC are using on their 15mm figures that support the MeG rules.

LINK
http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.com/2020/11/ultracast-figures-and-mortem-et-gloriam.html


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Orcs on 29 November 2020, 12:20:40 AM
Good review Norm


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 29 November 2020, 12:40:19 AM
Great review


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: paulr on 29 November 2020, 03:02:16 AM
Interesting, yet more choice in figure materials X_X


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 29 November 2020, 07:10:05 AM
They are doing their 10mm 80's stuff in it. You can't put antenna on vehicles. The ancient stuff matches metal figures reasonably well, and is good detail.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Norm on 29 November 2020, 07:36:56 AM
Thanks all, Will, your support and enthusiasm of the system contributed to my buying decision.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: jambo1 on 29 November 2020, 07:37:43 AM
A good review Norm, Ancients are not my thing but I could easily see myself taking a punt at both rules and figures, 3'x2' would be fine for me! :)


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Steve J on 29 November 2020, 07:40:17 AM
A very useful overview Norm, of both the rules and the figures. The three game sizes are a neat idea, as we don't all have access the Perry sized games rooms!


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Techno II on 29 November 2020, 07:42:21 AM
Excellent reviews, Norm ! :)

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Leon on 30 November 2020, 12:59:00 AM
Nice review!  I'm not sure why both PSC and Warlord seem to be putting their own names on this new resin, it's all the same SioCast out of Spain.  The machines to run it are extremely expensive and the moulds are about 8 times higher than a traditional rubber one.  We've been approached by them a few times but I'd need close to 1 million to transfer our machines and moulds over to it!


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Norm on 30 November 2020, 06:34:55 AM
Someone else on another forum suggested that the machines may be leased. If that is true, that could be an arrangement just to see whether the material is viable before making a bigger commitment. It is also interesting to see that the other two big plastics firm, Victrix and Perry, at this stage seems to be sticking with their traditional product, so maybe we are in a wait and see moment.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: sean66 on 30 November 2020, 07:44:11 AM
Nice review!  I'm not sure why both PSC and Warlord seem to be putting their own names on this new resin, it's all the same SioCast out of Spain.  The machines to run it are extremely expensive and the moulds are about 8 times higher than a traditional rubber one.  We've been approached by them a few times but I'd need close to 1 million to transfer our machines and moulds over to it!

Isn't this the same stuff GW declared was the next big thing in Wargaming a few years ago when they switched over to it  :-
I didn't like it then, was given a few figures made from it. So I think ill just wait till pendraken release it in metal.
Regards
Sean


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Big Insect on 30 November 2020, 09:58:32 AM
Sadly I am not a fan of Mortem Et Gloriam (MeG).
I've played a number of trial games with a proficient player and watched a number of competition events and have come to the conclusion that life is just too short to go down this particular avenue.
I thought the initial pre-battle phase was way, way too complicated and protracted for the ultimate outcome.
I tended to get bored part way through it and just hurry the process to its ultimate conclusion just so I could get on with playing the game - all that use of special dice, play charts and cards - sorry you lost me there before we've even started. Also, I am really not sure the ultimate outcome couldn't have been achieved in a much simpler and faster way!

The rules also need a lot of figures/units if played in their original format.
Which is fine if you are a refugee from the old DBM or FoG school of gaming and have the larger armies already in existence in your gaming cupboard, but units made up of masses of bases in multiple lines (of which only c.50% actually have any real use in the game) are all well and good if you have a lot of existing figures (in 15mm or 10mm - great for figure manufacturers  :D) and of course they look very nice on the table, but if you are somebody that likes to experiment with a lot of different armies or army variants,  across a lot of different ancients sub-periods, this set of rules is going to prove very expensive for you.

The ultimate rules mechanisms - moving, shooting, combat all work pretty effectively. But there is nothing here that is really revolutionary or distinctive.
Command is different - but again it is a combination of special dice and cards and like the pre-battle terrain and deployment section I found it overly complex for the outcomes it ultimately achieved.

In addition, c.50% of the games I played ended in timed-out draws - so no ultimate defeat of one side or the other. Now that might be due to a number of factors - my inexperience, my & my opponents playing styles, the armies we were using, etc.etc.etc. But one thing I found for sure was that this is not a quick pick-up set of rules and it does not make for a quick or particularly decisive end result.

I must also admit to tending to favour the larger scale of miniatures at present for my ancient/medieval gaming - having spent most of lockdown painting 28mm Punic War figures - so this might be a set of rules more for those who enjoy massed battles in a much smaller scale.

Just my thoughts and views of course  :D

mark


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 30 November 2020, 04:52:37 PM
Agree with some points.
As an early play tester, I have got back into ancients again after 15 years off. I love them. I like the unpredictability of the cards, and once you know the factors for your forces, the dice are easy.
But no rules are perfect. Horses for courses.
Maybe one day I'll get to take you through a game at speed...
Will


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Big Insect on 30 November 2020, 05:59:27 PM
Maybe one day I'll get to take you through a game at speed...
Will

That sounds like a post Covid (post vaccination) challenge I shall look forward to accepting Will  :)
Thanks
Mark


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 30 November 2020, 10:07:35 PM
You're on


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Steve J on 01 December 2020, 06:56:06 AM
I'm pretty sure the machines will be leased, based upon the deals that we were offered for various RP machines when I worked for a design company. The deal normally includes servicing which can be damned expensive, priority on repairs and parts etc. With the technology almost being out of date by the time you buy it, it sure as hell makes sense to go down that route.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Leon on 01 December 2020, 02:07:02 PM
I'm pretty sure the machines will be leased, based upon the deals that we were offered for various RP machines when I worked for a design company.

What from what I've heard the Warlord and PSC machines are on leases, but that option hasn't been offered to us.  They're asking 45,000Euro per machine, plus the 300Euro per mould that I mentioned earlier.  And the SioCast material is only available through them as well, so you're locked into their supply going forward.  It's an interesting idea and they've obviously put a lot of time into it, but those price points mean that it's just not viable for us to replace 3 or 4 machines and over 2500 moulds.

They also make a metal casting machine with an attached melting pot/furnace that I was interested in.  You barcode all of your regular moulds and the machine scans them as they go in, adjusts the settings to suit, and puts out a full spin for you.  You can run 3 moulds on a turntable and it would definitely speed up the casting process.  Again though, over 40,000Euro + 9,000Euro for the melting pot puts it immediately out of reach.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Big Insect on 01 December 2020, 03:45:52 PM
It will only be a (short) matter of time Leon before a competitor emerges and their monopoly is broken and prices plummet. It's about holding your nerve.

I was on the Board of a print business many moons ago and we saw the same 'game' played by the big print machine suppliers - "buy our new shiny state of the art latest gadget machine, on lease terms" was the cry, "but you also have to use this special ink or special service lubricant as well" and that was at an astronomical surcharge or on a contracted basis or you breached the machine warrantee.

They'd even roll over your existing lease debt from other manufacturers - so you could end up with new machines bearing c.5 or 6 times their true worth in accumulated debt.
No wonder it was easier for a printer to go bust, then phoenix and buy the machines back at a knock-down price with no debt. It was (& probably still is) a totally crazy situation.
We'd even be encouraged to sell our really old machines at knock-down prices - often back then to Eastern European printers - who would buy up 2 or 3 machines more than they needed to cannibalise for parts and then they'd undercut the existing UK printers ... and people would be surprised that the UK print industry was falling apart.
 


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Simon@TWZ on 02 December 2020, 02:21:39 PM
Hello all.  Pendraken have been my favourite 10mm models for well over a decade so I am big fan of Leon and all things here. Must have at least 500 tanks and 1000s of infantry for WW2 plus a good few 1000 ancients as well.

Thought I may as well chip in as I am in the know on such things. The forthcoming Divisions of Steels rules work with anything from 6-20mm but 10mm is a clear hot spot for the games.  PSC is doing a Divisions of Steel 10mm range which is scaled to match Pendraken at my request.  Personally I think 1/150th is the right scale for 10mm.  I've got 1/200th through to 1/144th and find them too small and too big and they don't mix at all well.  So I'm for 1/150th all the way personally.  You'll find lots of Pendraken models in the rulebook in my photos BTW.

On Ultracast.  First the machines are not available on lease to anyone Leon so your not missing out - only for purchase. So yes its a fair bit of money and risk I'm afraid. As you say about 50,000 Euros each just to get started!  It's feeling very good so far but like all new tech takes some time to get fully used to. 

The challenge is the material which is proprietary. I couldn't tell you what it is as I don't actually know!  It isn't anything like the ones from 3 or 4 years ago from GW - that was a resin that didn't work. 

This takes paint amazingly well and is very resilient. I own Lurkio metals and the plastic and metals seem to live happily side by side and you truly cannot tell them apart - even as the owner of them. I now play a game and ask people to choose and they never know until they pick them up! 

I expect the same will happen with WW2.  Metal and funky-plastic will co-exist nicely. Hopefully we will get a flourish in 10mm WW2 gaming next year which can be nothing but a win/win.

Si


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Simon@TWZ on 02 December 2020, 02:27:13 PM
Sadly I am not a fan of Mortem Et Gloriam (MeG).
I've played a number of trial games with a proficient player and watched a number of competition events and have come to the conclusion that life is just too short to go down this particular avenue.
I thought the initial pre-battle phase was way, way too complicated and protracted for the ultimate outcome.
I tended to get bored part way through it and just hurry the process to its ultimate conclusion just so I could get on with playing the game - all that use of special dice, play charts and cards - sorry you lost me there before we've even started. Also, I am really not sure the ultimate outcome couldn't have been achieved in a much simpler and faster way!

The rules also need a lot of figures/units if played in their original format.
Which is fine if you are a refugee from the old DBM or FoG school of gaming and have the larger armies already in existence in your gaming cupboard, but units made up of masses of bases in multiple lines (of which only c.50% actually have any real use in the game) are all well and good if you have a lot of existing figures (in 15mm or 10mm - great for figure manufacturers  :D) and of course they look very nice on the table, but if you are somebody that likes to experiment with a lot of different armies or army variants,  across a lot of different ancients sub-periods, this set of rules is going to prove very expensive for you.

The ultimate rules mechanisms - moving, shooting, combat all work pretty effectively. But there is nothing here that is really revolutionary or distinctive.
Command is different - but again it is a combination of special dice and cards and like the pre-battle terrain and deployment section I found it overly complex for the outcomes it ultimately achieved.

In addition, c.50% of the games I played ended in timed-out draws - so no ultimate defeat of one side or the other. Now that might be due to a number of factors - my inexperience, my & my opponents playing styles, the armies we were using, etc.etc.etc. But one thing I found for sure was that this is not a quick pick-up set of rules and it does not make for a quick or particularly decisive end result.

I must also admit to tending to favour the larger scale of miniatures at present for my ancient/medieval gaming - having spent most of lockdown painting 28mm Punic War figures - so this might be a set of rules more for those who enjoy massed battles in a much smaller scale.

Just my thoughts and views of course  :D

mark

Hi Mark,

Just to let you that the original set I self-published was that bigger game but what I then did is scaled it to three sizes.  So the new compendium has PACTO, MAGNA and MAXIMUS.  Maximus is what you were looking at and trying.  PACTO is about 25 bases a side, Magna about 50 compared to MAXIMUS and its 80 approx.  Pacto plays in about 90 mins, Magna 2 hours.  Lots of people playing Pacto from scratch coming in from all sorts of places which isn especially pleasing.

FWIW average result rate in events is 88% so most games get to 15-X results.  But if you were new to it and playing Maximus without helpers it can easily be so for a while. Also saw that with a some people playing in Australia at the beginning.

Maybe try Pacto with your Republicans. We do 28mm Pacto down here a lot in Cape Town.  Very fast moving indeed.  My army has 16 bases of hastati/principles, 4 Tirari, 4 elites, 2 cavalry and generals.

Si


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Big Insect on 02 December 2020, 03:08:23 PM
All sounds good Simon - I am a regular LaDG player myself (having spent many, many) years as an Armati player.
So the PACTO size game is probably much more up my street.
I'll give it a try
Cheers
Mark


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Simon@TWZ on 02 December 2020, 04:07:34 PM
Magna seems to be taking off in the USA with AdlG players.  About the same armies.  Pacto about Double DBA.  Any help needed just ask not he forum or FB.

Si


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 02 December 2020, 05:28:22 PM
Hi Si!
Welcome


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Techno II on 02 December 2020, 08:16:38 PM
From me, as well.

Cheers - Phil. :)


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Steve J on 02 December 2020, 09:07:34 PM
Welcome on board Si :).


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 December 2020, 07:08:21 AM
Hi Si. Aim to try the rules once the Welsh Idiots (politians) lets cross the border, if Airbus aint demolished the venue yet.


Title: Re: Ultracast figures and Mortem Et Glorium from Plastic Soldier Company
Post by: Techno II on 03 December 2020, 07:43:01 AM
At the rate we're going at the mo', Ian, it'll be the other way round soon. X_X

Cheers - Phil