We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc. To get these ranges up and running we're hoping to use a basic skeleton template of what's needed, which can then be tweaked a little for each conflict/nation along the way. This would be: infantry in the usual poses, mortar teams, LMGs, HMG teams, bazooka/launchers, officers and radio ops. The hope is that this will also provide a nice selection of proxy figures for other nations.
Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed. Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!
Israelis (1973)
IDF1 Advancing with FN FAL rifle (2 poses)
IDF2 Advancing with AK47
IDF3 Advancing with FN (GPMG) and No2 with ammo belts
IDF4 Standing, firing FN FAL rifle
IDF5 Standing, firing Uzi from waist
IDF6 Kneeling, firing rifle
IDF7 Prone, firing FN (GPMG and No2)
IDF8 FN FAL bipod team
IDF9 FN GPMG in tripod team
IDF10 Light mortar team with slung Uzi
IDF11 Medium mortar team with slung Uzi
IDF12 .50cal HMG team
IDF13 RPG-7 team
IDF14 Blincidide bazooka team
IDF15 Rifle grenadier
IDF16 Radio operator
IDF17 Officers x 2 (1 x field and 1 x staff)
IDF18 Tank commander
Artillery crews x 4
Egyptians (Waistcoat type)
EGP1 Advancing with AK47 (2 poses)
EGP2 Advancing with Kalashnikov
EGP3 Advancing with RPD machine gun
EGP4 Standing, firing AK47
EGP5 Standing, firing Port Said SMG (2 poses)
EGP6 Kneeling, firing AK47
EGP7 Kneeling, firing Port Said SMG
EGP8 Prone RPD machine gun team
EGP9 Light mortar team
EGP10 MMG team (SG-43 Goryunov)
EGP11 Sagger team
EGP12 RPG-7 team
EGP13 Sapper/Engineer team
EGP14 Radio operator
EGP15 Officers x 2 (1 x field and 1 x staff)
EGP16 Tank commander
EGP17 Little wooden cart - unique to assault infantry
Artillery crews x 4
Syrians (shirt tails out)
SRN1 Advancing with AK47 (2 poses, one in beret)
SRN2 Advancing RPD (2 poses, one in beret)
SRN3 Standing, firing AK47
SRN4 Kneeling, firing AK47
SRN5 Prone RPD machine gun team
SRN6 Light mortar team
SRN7 HMG team
SRN8 Sagger team
SRN9 RPG-7 team (one in beret)
SRN10 Sapper/Engineer team
SRN11 Radio operator
SRN12 Officers x 2
SRN13 Tank commander
Artillery crews x 4
:-bd
Great stuff!
Thank you for the MGs being prone (boo!) and advancing (huzzah!).
Sounds fun.
Advancing LMG teams would be useful as well, always looks a bit odd with all the standing riflemen and a prone MG team. For 73 the Syrians and Egyptians are virtually identical, and make good proxies for Soviets.
The Uzi was mainly used by support troops (Artillerymen, tankers and rear echelon troops.
frontline use was mostly with the elite troops.
good selection of troops.
Regards
Sean
Why just 73 or is 67 fully covered?
Can we add a generic "technical" pick up with the agility to mount assorted weapons on it, ie HMG, Recoiless rifle.
If some of the figures were in caps or bare headed, they could be used for all sorts of conflicts
Tank commanders/crew.
Cheers
Matt
I think 'Blincidid bazooka team' should be 'Blindicide bazooka team'
I suggest changing "Prone RPDM machine gun team" to "Prone RPD light machine gun team". Where you see 'M' as part of the nomenclature of Soviet small arms it means 'modernised'. The RPDM is a later modernised version of the 'RPD'. 'RPD' is the generic and much better known name for this family of LMGs, unless you want to be very specific and very technical indeed. For all intents and purposes all versions of the RDP are indistinguishable.
I also agree with the comments about prone LMG teams. My own preference, if I can only have one pose, is for moving teams but in an ideal world I like to have both.
Change "HMG team- Groyunov?" to "SG-43 Goryunov medium machine gun". The Goryunov is not a HMG but a MMG.
If you want a Soviet HMG equivalent to the .50 Browning, you need a DShK 12.7mm heavy machine gun.
Finally, Egyptians used the East German helmet as well as the Soviet one.
Greetings
Greetings
Excellent!
Arab/Soviet bloc:
- I suspect SA-7 Grail, though plentiful in 1973, may not be deployed in the front lines?
- I don't know the extent to which the Soviet SG-43 was being replaced by the PK pre-1973. But post Middle East you'll need PK(M)s in light and tripod role.
- Semi related point that as yet there would be no RPKs in 1973 but again once you move onto Soviet these will be needed. The template figures seem good though.
- The Syrians need a Sagger team I think.
Israeli:
No thoughts so far.
Regards
Edward
Each Israeli squad had 2x FN FAL heavy barrel with bipod as squad automatic weapon, so you'd need those as well as the FN-MAG teams.
Besides the Blindicide 83mm, the IDF also used RPG-7, 3.5" M20 and a home-built version called the 82mm Marnat. However all appear to look pretty much the same (apart from the RPG-7 obviously) - a long stove pipe with a distinct shield, so you'd probably get away with one model in 10mm.
Regarding Uzi in front line use, the paras and mechanised infantry had a high proportion of them per squad, so are a legit inclusion. Later in the 1973 war some IDF units were solely equipped with Soviet small arms, AK47, RPD, RPG-7, so they are too all legit inclusions.
The Egyptian sappers used Soviet 50mm mortars for mineclearing, so I presume that is what is meant by their light mortar teams.
Didn't thye have backpack flame throwers too?
You might want to add anti-tank gun crews for all sides, especially the arabs.
And 82mm B10 recoilless rifles for the arabs.
Thumbs up for the advancing LMG teams from me too!
And don't forget the Jordanians.....
Some good photos for poses of IDF bazooka teams on this thread:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://bukvoed.livejournal.com/273945.html
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 11 November 2020, 07:29:16 PM
Some good photos for poses of IDF bazooka teams on this thread:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://bukvoed.livejournal.com/273945.html
Mark
Thanks Mark. Appreciated. James
Yom Kippur saw the role of AAA take a whole new meaning in denying the Israeli AF air superiority.
Table top would there be a demand for generic Arab SA 7 and Dshkm in AA mounting?
For Egypt 1973, your main AA systems are:
Sa-7 teams allocated at brigade and army level
ZSU-23-4
57mm S60
twin 23mm ZU-23-2
85mm KS12
100mm KS19
For other armies, the 14.5mm ZPU-1/2/4 AAHMG are probably more common than 12.7mm AAHMG, along with 37mm M39 AA.
Having said that, we need the 37mm M39 AA, 85mm AA and 12.7mm AAHMG for WW2 Russians, so making one would easily be converitble to the other, if not identical.
For some on who is no expert in modern warfare, arn't EGP1 and EGP2 armed the same?
Egyptians (Waistcoat type)
EGP1 Advancing with AK47 (2 poses)
EGP2 Advancing with Kalashnikov
Quote from: sultanbev on 25 January 2021, 10:52:06 AM
For Egypt 1973, your main AA systems are:
Sa-7 teams allocated at brigade and army level
ZSU-23-4
57mm S60
twin 23mm ZU-23-2
85mm KS12
100mm KS19
For other armies, the 14.5mm ZPU-1/2/4 AAHMG are probably more common than 12.7mm AAHMG, along with 37mm M39 AA.
Having said that, we need the 37mm M39 AA, 85mm AA and 12.7mm AAHMG for WW2 Russians, so making one would easily be converitble to the other, if not identical.
Sorry, Phil and I have no interest in a plethora of heavy kit/vehicles. Not in our paygrade/ figures brief. What we do know is that gamers do not like units off the table, so little demand for the SA2/3/6 that were the backbone of Arab AAA umbrella. ZSU-23 is vunerable to small arms fire, nevermind the Centurions it will be sharing a table with.
An estimated 4,000+ SA7 rockets were fired which suggests wide deployment at battalion level following the Soviet model.
Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?
Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?
Thanks again
In all seriousness could we include
Youths throwing stones/ petrol bombs
PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.
I am thinking a single pack with say.
Firing AK47
Moving AK47
Rifle
Rifle with spare RPG rounds x2
RPG
Perhaps they could be made as a half way to making the main masters. Ie before they are covered in Army webbing. they could them be painted up as civies if needed
Quote from: Orcs on 25 January 2021, 12:14:55 PM
For some on who is no expert in modern warfare, arn't EGP1 and EGP2 armed the same?
Egyptians (Waistcoat type)
EGP1 Advancing with AK47 (2 poses)
EGP2 Advancing with Kalashnikov
Quite right.
From memory i think the differnce was that EGP1 would be in the assault jerkin. I will check with Leon.
"Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?"
In my rules yes. With a range of about 4km that is 200cm in CWC, so they would appear on table in many wargames.
"Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?"
Good point, I play battalions at 1:1 so I'd buy 6x Sa-7 teams as that is what a brigade has.
I'd buy at least 9 x 12.7mm AAHMG for my WW2 Russians, and probably more for conversions - if the gunner is wearing a helmet I'd also use them for any arab armies I build.
The Soviet 85mm AA (KS12 is a post-war designation for the WW2 gun) is as important as a WW2 German 88, and used as an anti-gun just as often. So again, I'd buy 9 for my WW2 Soviets, and more if I did an arab army.
"Sorry, Phil and I have no interest in a plethora of heavy kit/vehicles. Not in our paygrade/ figures brief."
Ah right, I was only listing what was had, not necessarily asking that they be made as such. If your brief is solely to do Arab-Israeli infantry, then probably just the Sa-7 team would do out of all the AA assets listed. Just realised there is a NVA 12.7mm AAHMG already, so maybe I can convert that for my WW2 needs.
Sa-2s were used as emergency anti-tank rockets once the IDF had crossed the canal, and the old Airfix nostalgia might kick in, but yes, we don't really need Sa-2 and Sa-3 models. The ZSU-23-4 and Sa-6 I can probably get elsewhere in 3D print or from Red3.
Mark
Thanks Mark. That's the sort of tablewise feedback we need, Phil's figures are finer than the early Vietnam range, so even with a little exaggeration, his 12.7 will NOT be the same size as a 1/150 Bofors.
I will refer Orcs' request upwards. :)
Quote from: Orcs on 25 January 2021, 12:22:38 PM
In all seriousness could we include
Youths throwing stones/ petrol bombs
PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.
Leon asked in the OP
"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed. Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"
I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range. Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.
Quote from: sultanbev on 25 January 2021, 12:43:51 PM
"Also the 4,000 odd fired had a very low kill ratio. Which suggests poor training/ineffective against fast jets. Is this reflected in rules?"
In my rules yes. With a range of about 4km that is 200cm in CWC, so they would appear on table in many wargames.
"Question remains, if Pendraken produce SA7team and Dshkm in simpleAA mount, will the aveage gamer fighting a glorified skirmish, buy them?"
Good point, I play battalions at 1:1 so I'd buy 6x Sa-7 teams as that is what a brigade has.
Sa-2s were used as emergency anti-tank rockets once the IDF had crossed the canal, and the old Airfix nostalgia might kick in, but yes, we don't really need Sa-2 and Sa-3 models. The ZSU-23-4 and Sa-6 I can probably get elsewhere in 3D print or from Red3.
Mark
Thanks Mark
In excange for tons of kit, the US got access to a IDF intel combat reports and debriefs. This was passec to NATO. Things like:
1. The role of debussed infantry was still valid, and the MICV role such as the Soviet BMP needed to be revised. The fact that Arab infantry did not debus needs to be in the rules.
2. Counter battery fire was taken by IDF to a whole new level.
3. The ZSU-23-4. Yes, I can predict Pendraken will make one. The Arabs depoyed them forward as AAA. However, in the battles around Suez, they were encountered by IDF Recon units. Jeeps with 7.62mm and .50 HMG. It was found their exposed optics werevery vunerable to small arms fire. Is this in the rules?
4. SA-2 against tanks. No even an open sight. But agree with your Airfix theory. Wargaming is 60% building and painting. All IA have done during pandemic is paint.
Thanks again
James
Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.
Quote from: John Cook on 26 January 2021, 10:19:13 AM
Leon asked in the OP
"Below is the rough idea of our Arab-Israeli ranges, so have a look and see if there's anything you think we've missed. Remember that this is a core range so we're looking for the essentials to begin with!"
I'd say that the PLO is an essential part of any core Arab-Israeli range. Such figures would also be useful to represent any Arab insurgent types for any of the ME wars up to the present day.
Two key points to note:
1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973 October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.
Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.
9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 11:12:46 AM
Think you are looking at too lower level for CWC here James.
Care to expand Ian? My query to Mark was if CWC rules had mechanisn for the ZSU-23-4 to have its optics disabled by small arms fire. As happened in 1973 war,
It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 12:46:54 PM
It would be the suppression rule. From memory the 50 cal has no AT value in BKC so I suspect that it won't in CWC II. It's probably going to be on a 4 to hit and 6 to supress like most small arms. If we were doing a skirmish level game it would be a special effect, probably vehicle specific. I suspect that in reality the vehicle would actually be out of action as unable to repair the damage but thyats a bit much detail for CWC. Mark could probably enlighten us more on this.
Perhaps bring back the HMG's may suppress armored vehicles rule from BKC1 for this.
I think this is an area that we do not pay enough attention to. I have just read Anthony Beevor's book 'D-Day'. In it it is mentioned the effect of Mortar fire on Tanks from both a morale perspective and forcing them to close down and hugely reduce their visibility. Surely this is true for even modern tanks even in modern tanks.?
Israeli Tank commanders suffered a high percentage of casualties, mainly to head wounds from having their head out of the hatch. A wounded or killed commander is going to have a negative effect on both the crew and vehicle effectiveness. Either from simply the lack of a crew member or from what is leaking out of him into the tank.
Thanks Ian. The ZSU 23-4 is unique in that its firepower is lethal to an infantry unit, however its Achilles' heel is its exposed firecontrol optics, A decent burst from a 7.62 GPMG will render it blind. It is not an AFV. It is tracked AAA. Not designed to be shot up. This may need to be reflected in rules.
But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.
Quote from: Sunray on 26 January 2021, 11:32:11 AM
Two key points to note:
1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973 October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.
Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.
9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.
I see. So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973 October Yom Kippur War range."
Makes you wonder who's in charge. :)
I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War but I do know the distinction between the PLO and the PLA and I would only point out that Orcs asked specifically for "PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.", he didn't ask for PLA.
A generic Arab insurgent range would be very useful for a 'loosely focused' expansion to cover ME/Arabian Peninsular conflicts generally.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 02:16:28 PM
But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.
The 23/4 units were only deployed in the debacle that was Grozny because no Russian tank/AFV had the elevatin for roof top FIBUA. No argument about the power of their 4x 12.7 mm supressive fire. But they were deployed with T72s , Mi 24s, and at one stage even Spetsnaz! Even so the 23/4s suffered heavy losses.
Now, you are an Egyptian 23/4 crew on the road to Suez City. Your training has been to engage low flying aircraft. You are ordered to delay IDF advance. Two jeeps come down the road. You fire off 4,000 rds in 60 seconds. The first jeep explodes, the second engages with its fifty. The 1A7SRD disentagrates into the commander's face.
You are buttoned up and blind. Fifty AP are bouncing around the vehicle. Your driver is dead. The commander panics and opens the hatch, in drops an M26.........
Quote from: John Cook on 26 January 2021, 04:38:56 PM
I see. So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973 October Yom Kippur War range."
Makes you wonder who's in charge. :)
I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War .
In short yes- Phil and I have the figures template from Leon, we follow the brief. That's where it stays until Leon says different. R and D of a new range is not cheap, and starts with a core of mainstream figures. If Yom Kippur mainstream generates sales, no doubt Leon will consider requests like PLO and expand the range. That]s his call. When Leon and I discussed the core range, he sanctioned 1973 IDF, Egyption,and Syrian. The minor role of Jordanian, PLA, and PLO in 1973 excluded them. Personally, I argued for Cold War first, but Leon's in charge.
If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum. As you admit you have no interest in the range. :)
In 1973 I cut out all the news articles and magazine articles I could find. :D
In 2013 I dumped them. :'(
For me 1973 would be a troop/platoon level game - based around a troop of tanks and a platoon of infantry in their vehicles. Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now? :-\
I suppose it's a bit different if you're working at battalion/brigade level.
I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.
*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.
Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM
Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now? :-
Can I have a Sho't at answering your question?
:D
Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM
. . . but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now? :-
M50 or M51 Super Sherman?
OK, I was thinking of the M48.
Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM
I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.
*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.
Quite. Leon knows the market. If you start a WW2 range, you start with Brits and Germans, then USA and Soviets. Once they make a return in sales, you expand to perhaps Polish and French.
And yes. the Pendraken 23/4 is in the pipeline. Mark can sort a CWC rule as regards smallarms fire.
Quote from: Sunray on 26 January 2021, 05:09:28 PM
If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum. As you admit you have no interest in the range. :)
I'm just confused by seemingly contradictory messages. No, I don't have any interest in a Yom Kippur War range but you told me in December, in the context of an M38 model, that you "don't do Arab-Israeli" either. :D
As someone said above, it's easier to pick a specific time point and start your ranges there. There were some uniform changes before 1973 I believe that would have limited some of the troop types, so we would have needed to double up some of the sculpt lists to cover those. We tried that with the Korean range but the sales have been limited, so I didn't want to put too much money into this right off the bat. Yom Kippur is the most requested part of the conflicts so it made sense to start there.
The other advantage is that most of the stuff used can be transfered to Cold War armies. Also you already have a lot of it. From memory you need to add the M60A1, Walid, BMP, ZSU23/4 and 57, BTR60 and M50 and M51 Shermans (not to sure about M50 for 73) and modify your M3 1/2 Track.
Quote from: Leon on 27 January 2021, 09:39:36 AM
As someone said above, it's easier to pick a specific time point and start your ranges there. There were some uniform changes before 1973 I believe that would have limited some of the troop types, so we would have needed to double up some of the sculpt lists to cover those. We tried that with the Korean range but the sales have been limited, so I didn't want to put too much money into this right off the bat. Yom Kippur is the most requested part of the conflicts so it made sense to start there.
And with the adults in the room, that's good enough for me. My major project revolves around several fictitious states in East Africa. One is a client state of Israel - the other gets support from the Arabs. So whilst not gaming Arab Israeli contact directly, the figures and the AFVs of this range will be purchased in some quantity and on my table. The 41 Commando Korea range already make great Congo style Mercs, as do the Koreans for militia types.
I also get personal pleasure in assisting Phil create the best range of 10mm modern figures I have ever seen. Worse ways of spending lockdown. :)
Would I be righth in thinking, this will be the first 10mm range for the Arab Israeli conflict? If so thats the way to go as thee are a couple 9at least) of other 10mm cold war ranges and you would be competing with them. Better to get a range out that is "exclusive"
Afraid not, Red3 already do some 10mm Arab-Israeli stuff, including infantry.
Quote from: sultanbev on 27 January 2021, 11:18:45 AM
Afraid not, Red3 already do some 10mm Arab-Israeli stuff, including infantry.
Correct. Red 3 vehicles are neat. Infantry however are light on sculpt detail, and a bit Mr Blobby. Minifigs also have a range of generic Arab infantry.
Where Pendraken will be unique is the Egyptian are distinct from the Syrian with combat jerkins. Phil;s sculpts have alot more poses.
Do we have a date yet - answers of 1973 are not acceptable ;)
Quote from: Leon on 27 January 2021, 09:39:36 AM
As someone said above, it's easier to pick a specific time point and start your ranges there. There were some uniform changes before 1973 I believe that would have limited some of the troop types, so we would have needed to double up some of the sculpt lists to cover those. We tried that with the Korean range but the sales have been limited, so I didn't want to put too much money into this right off the bat. Yom Kippur is the most requested part of the conflicts so it made sense to start there.
Leon, thanks for that. It is clear enough now. As an adult I've never been very impressed by either verbal or physical BS. The Korean War has always seemed, to me anyway, one of the most utterly depressing wars of 20th Century, and too close the WW2 to be sufficiently different. I look on the Crimean War in much the same way in a 19th Century context. So, to be frank, I'm not surprised that sales have been disappointing. It's a shame but you can't win 'em all.
Have to say the Korean War stuff I have are excellent models.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 January 2021, 03:51:07 PM
Have to say the Korean War stuff I have are excellent models.
Yes, great stuff.
Will in any of these new figures provide suitable infantry support for the Swedish S tank? What would be used for the 1950s Soviet invader's infantry?
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 27 January 2021, 05:15:30 PM
Will in any of these new figures provide suitable infantry support for the Swedish S tank? What would be used for the 1950s Soviet invader's infantry?
Not sure at the moment, I've not looked at the Swedish army much so I'd need to see what's required there to be honest.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 27 January 2021, 05:15:30 PM
Will in any of these new figures provide suitable infantry support for the Swedish S tank? What would be used for the 1950s Soviet invader's infantry?
S-tank is roughly 70's through 90's. If you're doing the 50's you don't want an S-tank!
But you still need an Stank!
Quote from: Raider4 on 27 January 2021, 06:43:16 PM
S-tank is roughly 70's through 90's. If you're doing the 50's you don't want an S-tank!
Good point; only in development in the fifties. So I need 1970s infantry. At least it would fit in with my West German army of that period ... well it would apart from that army being 6mm! :D
Dont the Swedes have odd helmets
Well, we don't want to make them then. :D
Cheers - Phil. ;)
In case anyone's not seen it there is a Swedish army list still available for Coldwar Commander from the old SMP website (http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Downloads/default.aspx).
Quote from: ianrs54 on 28 January 2021, 06:58:54 AM
Dont the Swedes have odd helmets
This one?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_M1937
In 6mm I used H&R Cold War West Germans for my Swedish infantry, so would probably do the same in 10mm for all the differences there are, unless someone actually went to the trouble of making them.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 28 January 2021, 09:13:34 AM
This one?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_M1937
Thats the beast. Doubt the Swedes would be commercial but would not be a huge investment - S tank, PBV301(based on 38(t) Chassis) PBV302 and IKV91, plus their jeep like thingy.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 January 2021, 03:51:07 PM
Have to say the Korean War stuff I have are excellent models.
I don't doubt it for a moment. All Pendraken's miniatures are excellent (some are more excellent than others ;)). There are just some periods that don't motivate me and the Korean War is one of them. It would be a dull world if we all liked the same thing, would it not?
Now, a Dhofar War range, Sultan's Armed Forces, Iranians, Jordanians, SAS on one side, Popular Front for the Liberation of Oman and Yemenis on the other, would be something else and motivate me to do something post 1940.
That explains my interest in this thread. I'm always on the look-out for Dhofar War proxies but no luck yet.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 27 January 2021, 09:53:07 AM
The other advantage is that most of the stuff used can be transfered to Cold War armies. Also you already have a lot of it. From memory you need to add the M60A1, Walid, BMP, ZSU23/4 and 57, BTR60 and M50 and M51 Shermans (not to sure about M50 for 73) and modify your M3 1/2 Track.
Good call IanKeeping to the Yom Kippum script.Leon has already ordered L33 Roem, I have mentioned IDF versions of halftrack with kit rails, and an SS100 version. Makmat 160mm mortar also key weapon.
The SS10 version is very rare, 6-10 built. They may have recieved TOW in the US supply flights though they dont seem to have used it. The Israli 1/2 tracks are the M5/9 varient mostly, they bought ours. Changes were to add an MG in the drivers compartment, remove the pulpit, and add a pintle mount in the rear compartment, with a 50 cal.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 28 January 2021, 01:56:21 PM
The SS10 version is very rare, 6-10 built. They may have recieved TOW in the US supply flights though they dont seem to have used it. The Israli 1/2 tracks are the M5/9 varient mostly, they bought ours. Changes were to add an MG in the drivers compartment, remove the pulpit, and add a pintle mount in the rear compartment, with a 50 cal.
Cheers Ian, this is very useful
The total ATGW assets for the IDF in 1973 were:
755th Anti-tank Battalion (Bar Lev line) (small arms being AK47 until replaced by M16 in 1974)
3 Companies@ 3 platoons@ 3x Jeep/SS-11, 1 ammo Jeep
1 Company: CHQ: 2x Gaz-69
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
----------
2 independent Anti-tank Companies@
CHQ: 2x Gaz-69 Jeeps
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
The 2P26 was the Gaz-69 Jeep with the 4 missiles pointing out the back, a much needed and overlooked model in any scale.
Some TOW ATGW mounted on Jeeps were deployed from 14th October 1973 in the 247th Airborne Brigade’s Anti-tank Company, 162nd Division. The company has 3 platoons each of 4x Jeep/106mm, it is not clear how many of these were replaced by Jeep/TOW, I suspect at least 1 platoon's worth.
As an aside the IDF received 6000x M72 LAW on 11th October 1973, from the US airlift.
As another aside they only had 50x 84mm Carl Gustav in 1973, in service with the navy.
The 87th divisional recce battalion had a company (12?) Jeep+TOW in November 1973
-------------
In the 1967 war the total IDF ATGW assets were:
755th Battalion (crew small arms being Mauser K98 rifles and MG34 until 1969)
1st battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in 38th Division
2nd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack on Jordanian front
3rd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in "WPCS" on Golan (translation from Jewish to Russian to English isn't clear....)
1 battery: 6x SS-11 on Jeeps (or more) in 35th Para Brigade
1 battery: 3? 12? x Cobra 1600 on Jeeps in with 80th Para Brigade
The SS-10 was received in 1957 and replaced by SS-11 by 1962. The halftrack+ SS-11 was phased out in 1969. The Cobra 1600 was phased out after the 1967 war.
The 2P26 AT-1 Snapper was issued to 755th Battalion in 1968.
After the 1973 war BRDM-2/Sagger were issued, and M151 Jeeps modified to carry Saggers.
Quote from: sultanbev on 28 January 2021, 09:25:55 AM
In 6mm I used H&R Cold War West Germans for my Swedish infantry, so would probably do the same in 10mm for all the differences there are, unless someone actually went to the trouble of making them.
Guess I could just buy some 6mm S-tanks then. I was thinking of matching them off against T54/T55 but I guess that they would be matched off against T62s in the 1970s.
Looking at the divisions of the Leningrad MD, those most likely opposite the Swedes, all but one, the 45th MRD, had T-55s and MTLB through to 1985 at least. So no BMPs and no T-62s. The 45th MRD had T-72s and BMPs in 1985, so may have been the only one in that theatre to transition to new tanks and MICV in the 1970s.
http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/Army.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/msd/45gvmsd.htm
Quote from: sultanbev on 28 January 2021, 08:11:07 PM
The total ATGW assets for the IDF in 1973 were:
755th Anti-tank Battalion (Bar Lev line) (small arms being AK47 until replaced by M16 in 1974)
3 Companies@ 3 platoons@ 3x Jeep/SS-11, 1 ammo Jeep
1 Company: CHQ: 2x Gaz-69
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
----------
2 independent Anti-tank Companies@
CHQ: 2x Gaz-69 Jeeps
3 platoons@ 4x 2P26 AT-1 Snapper
The 2P26 was the Gaz-69 Jeep with the 4 missiles pointing out the back, a much needed and overlooked model in any scale.
Some TOW ATGW mounted on Jeeps were deployed from 14th October 1973 in the 247th Airborne Brigade's Anti-tank Company, 162nd Division. The company has 3 platoons each of 4x Jeep/106mm, it is not clear how many of these were replaced by Jeep/TOW, I suspect at least 1 platoon's worth.
As an aside the IDF received 6000x M72 LAW on 11th October 1973, from the US airlift.
As another aside they only had 50x 84mm Carl Gustav in 1973, in service with the navy.
The 87th divisional recce battalion had a company (12?) Jeep+TOW in November 1973
-------------
In the 1967 war the total IDF ATGW assets were:
755th Battalion (crew small arms being Mauser K98 rifles and MG34 until 1969)
1st battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in 38th Division
2nd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack on Jordanian front
3rd Battery: 1 OR 3 platoons@ 4x SS-11 on halftracks, 1 ammo halftrack in "WPCS" on Golan (translation from Jewish to Russian to English isn't clear....)
1 battery: 6x SS-11 on Jeeps (or more) in 35th Para Brigade
1 battery: 3? 12? x Cobra 1600 on Jeeps in with 80th Para Brigade
The SS-10 was received in 1957 and replaced by SS-11 by 1962. The halftrack+ SS-11 was phased out in 1969. The Cobra 1600 was phased out after the 1967 war.
The 2P26 AT-1 Snapper was issued to 755th Battalion in 1968.
After the 1973 war BRDM-2/Sagger were issued, and M151 Jeeps modified to carry Saggers.
Mark, this is obviously Primary Source research.
1. Can you cite your sources?
2. Advise Leon what additional models he should consider for 1973 Yom Kippur? Special consideration for any that have Cold War application.
Phil and I will stick to researching figures and uniform.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 28 January 2021, 11:26:23 PM
Guess I could just buy some 6mm S-tanks then. I was thinking of matching them off against T54/T55 but I guess that they would be matched off against T62s in the 1970s.
For some reason I have in my head that the Swedes would likely have been facing the Poles, so T-55s for me in my hypothetical 'Cold War gone hot' game.
Quote from: Raider4 on 29 January 2021, 09:16:54 AM
For some reason I have in my head that the Swedes would likely have been facing the Poles, so T-55s for me in my hypothetical 'Cold War gone hot' game.
As the Baltic Sea lies between them and with the geo-political structures involved, this seems a rather strange fantasy. Any idea of a likely scenario that would cause this to arise?
My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces. Soviet kit would be T55, T72 and possibly T 62. Some infantry would have been in MTLB rather than BTR? or possibly BMP.
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 29 January 2021, 10:12:43 AM
As the Baltic Sea lies between them and with the geo-political structures involved, this seems a rather strange fantasy. Any idea of a likely scenario that would cause this to arise?
Dunno, really. Something about the Soviets head west, and the Poles invade Sweden in a combined naval/airborne operation to protect the Russians northern flank and tie-up the USMC. Can't remember where I picked this up - book? movie? idle speculation on an internet forum? -, but it's definitely there.
Quote from: Sunray on 29 January 2021, 08:53:56 AM
Mark, this is obviously Primary Source research.
1. Can you cite your sources?
2. Advise Leon what additional models he should consider for 1973 Yom Kippur? Special consideration for any that have Cold War application.
Phil and I will stick to researching figures and uniform.
The source is the old WarOnline website, a Russian language one that featured articles on the IDF, including veterans reports (many Israelies came from Russia), or used hebrew sources and translated them. It doesn't appear to exist anymore. I did make handwritten notes of the main article, and a cut and paste of the article on ATGW,which is too big to attach here.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 29 January 2021, 10:30:04 AM
My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces. Soviet kit would be T55, T72 and possibly T 62. Some infantry would have been in MTLB rather than BTR? or possibly BMP.
Seems a bit unlikely as the agreement was that the Finns would resist anyone entering their territories, so they would be adding Finland to their list of enemies. Still, a useful angle for scenarios.
Quote from: Raider4 on 29 January 2021, 10:35:08 AM
Dunno, really. Something about the Soviets head west, and the Poles invade Sweden in a combined naval/airborne operation to protect the Russians northern flank and tie-up the USMC. Can't remember where I picked this up - book? movie? idle speculation on an internet forum? -, but it's definitely there.
I would have to lean towards the Danish angle but from a simple start the possibilities seem to be expanding rapidly! Starting with two armies there are already five being mentioned; bit more than the small project I was envisaging.
My understanding is that Sweden was targeted by Leningrad MD, coming in through Finland. Poles were targeted on Denmark using their airbourne forces.
There was also the Polish Sea Landing Division which we expected to land in Koge Bay. In one of the three UKMF Options we sent the 1st Infantry Brigade to the area west of Copenhagen and aimed to lay lotsa mines there. One of the challenges for the Milan ATGW which was expected to be used vs the landing craft was the network of power lines which all ran the wrong way.
Time to quote Slim - only fight ion a forward slope at a point were two maps join. As to the Soviet/Polish attack thats what I had heard as well. Air cover was to come from elements of RAFG and the Lufftewaffe, with possibilty of an assist from a USMC air wing.
Who is designing the range .
Will it be the same person who did the falklands and Korean war stuff.
Jim.
Quote from: Jim Ando on 04 February 2021, 06:17:29 PM
Who is designing the range .
Will it be the same person who did the falklands and Korean war stuff.
Jim.
Thr most gifted figure sculptor in 10mm bar none, assisted by an arsehole of a researcher. who insists on primary based evidence :) Same team as Korea.
Quote from: sultanbev on 29 January 2021, 06:36:30 PM
The source is the old WarOnline website, a Russian language one that featured articles on the IDF, including veterans reports (many Israelies came from Russia), or used hebrew sources and translated them. It doesn't appear to exist anymore. I did make handwritten notes of the main article, and a cut and paste of the article on ATGW,which is too big to attach here.
There seems to be some stuff saved on the Web Archive - https://web.archive.org/web/20200729201058/http://www.waronline.org/fora/index.php (https://web.archive.org/web/20200729201058/http://www.waronline.org/fora/index.php)
Well found Victor. The RCMP have nothing on you.
Just wondering if there is any news on when this range will be available to buy? I'm itching to do this period.
Quote from: pbeccas on 07 June 2021, 01:24:01 PM
Just wondering if there is any news on when this range will be available to buy? I'm itching to do this period.
I think it'll be a couple of months at this point, the Naps project needs to take priority and with all of the moving costs we've had to slow down sculpting on these Modern ranges sadly.
I'll wait. Thanks for the update.
Need prone riflemen firing, and perhaps crawling figs too, to go with the prone MGs firing.
Casualty figs for all would be nice too.
Following the disappointing sales of the Korea range, Leon has ordered a more modest initial "launch range" of figures. Pending sales and popularity these can be expanded, but its "toe in the water" till they get established.
A shame, but perhaps some of the current minis in production can be leveraged with a few minor mods (for a skilled sculptor in this scale), that can be used to create new figs quickly, and more inexpensively, e.g.:
WWII US Marine Bazooka man in soft cap - if a head-swap were done, he could be used as a US infantryman in WWII, and perhaps for the Cold War Danes too (not sure if they got older WWII bazookas, or just the 3.5" models. Could swap out the larger tube too, I suppose, though I can just pretend this model is the 3.5".
We need a kneeling American/Other man firing the bazooka from the kneeling position, since only those in standing poses are available for WWII, which just seems odd. Most figs/photos I've seen, or accounts I've read about, show/mention them firing from the kneeling or prone position.
Korean War British 3.5" Bazooka Man firing from the prone position (with Beret/Other) - head swap with man wearing an M-1 Helmet, and these can be used for the Americans, Danes, and West German troops, as well as perhaps for other European/NATO nations too.
We need a Prone 3.5" Bazooka Man firing his weapon for the Cold War - works for the Korean era too.
Would love to see some Swedes too, for the Cold War - yes, they do have the odd looking helmets, but carry G3 rifles (useful for the West Germans/others in Europe.
Would love to see the vehicles mentioned - especially the PBV302, their "Jeep" which was used as is, along with other light A/T weapons - 90mm RR, and their 1 ton Type 11 and 903 trucks, which also mounted RRs. Their Strv 74 tank would be nice too (looks a bit like the little M24 tank to me). The BV 202 and 206 tracked, snow vehicles would be very useful in the great white north, too.