Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Batreps => Topic started by: Steve J on 13 October 2020, 02:36:08 PM

Title: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 13 October 2020, 02:36:08 PM
The conclusion to my campaign can be found on my Blog below:

https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/10/operation-sealion-game-4-bristol-or-bust.html (https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/10/operation-sealion-game-4-bristol-or-bust.html)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OET7pMx2dVA/X4SHTQ9ZmSI/AAAAAAAAJ8I/CNbE5pW4wykuKA-xJRK2QM5MuqRGiWasgCLcBGAsYHQ/w400-h300/P1120514.JPG)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RvFLbV0-ucc/X4SHWYSsGXI/AAAAAAAAJ9I/Jmj6zRkeckonqJkVg6J0XeTgS9dM2PHdwCLcBGAsYHQ/w400-h300/P1120530.JPG)
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Big Insect on 13 October 2020, 04:14:37 PM
An exciting end to a great campaign Steve.
I know you are having a BKCIV break for your next campaign but I'd be the first to want to ask for more SJ Operation Sealion.

I managed a 4 day break in Cornwall recently and  stayed at a holiday complex on the coast near Falmouth where there were 4 nicely preserved WW2 pill boxes defending the beach and cliffs above it. All of which remined me of your campaign.

Thank you for sharing your games

Mark
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Techno II on 13 October 2020, 04:24:50 PM
+1  :-bd

Cheers - Phil  :)
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 13 October 2020, 06:06:07 PM
Thanks chaps :).

Mark, I would love to game the Operation 'proper' as it were, but need to (as always) finish painting enough units to make it feasible. Something definitely for the future though.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 13 October 2020, 08:15:58 PM
Fab reports, great ideas and love the theme.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 13 October 2020, 08:54:08 PM
Thanks Will :).
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: paulr on 13 October 2020, 11:29:51 PM
 :-bd =D> :-bd =D>
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 14 October 2020, 09:01:03 AM
Quote from: Steve J on 13 October 2020, 02:36:08 PM
The conclusion to my campaign can be found on my Blog below:

https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/10/operation-sealion-game-4-bristol-or-bust.html (https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/10/operation-sealion-game-4-bristol-or-bust.html)


Currently I will be using my wooden blocks to fight a variety of games and really must give the BP ECW rules a run out as I've had them far too long. Some ACW games are on the cards, again with my wooden blocks.

Wooden blocks?  Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: sean66 on 14 October 2020, 10:06:11 AM
I have an Operation Sealion Project just growing.
so far, some fallschirmjaeger, some British Infantry and some Home Guard.
hopefully they will be on my blog soon.  :D
regards
Sean
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 14 October 2020, 12:00:53 PM
See my wooden blocks in action below:

https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-war-of-rhabarberian-succession-turn_20.html (https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-war-of-rhabarberian-succession-turn_20.html)
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 14 October 2020, 11:50:24 PM
Quote from: Steve J on 14 October 2020, 12:00:53 PM
See my wooden blocks in action below:

https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-war-of-rhabarberian-succession-turn_20.html (https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-war-of-rhabarberian-succession-turn_20.html)

Interesting stuff.  Do you find using Kriegsspiel blocks effective in contrast to figures.

I see you use Warplan 5/5, you must have been using it a good many years.  Is it still worthwhile? [Well, yes, because you are using it but Perfect Captain does something similar and wargaming has moved on in 50 years so does it still fit modern needs].
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 15 October 2020, 07:33:05 AM
I actually find it easier to concentrate when using the blocks, as it's very clear what's what and where etc. I should point out that I only use these really for the 17thC to 19thC periods and not post WWI.

Re: the Warplan 5/5, I was given these by a fellow Blogger and it was first time using them. I found them perfectly fine for my needs and didn't feel they had dated much, if at all. The only thing I had to do was make some terrain calls based upon the ruleset being used, if that makes sense?

Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 15 October 2020, 07:33:45 AM
I look forward to seeing your efforts Sean when you get to post them on your Blog :).
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: mmcv on 15 October 2020, 09:00:19 AM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 14 October 2020, 11:50:24 PM
Interesting stuff.  Do you find using Kriegsspiel blocks effective in contrast to figures.

I'ved used 2D counters I made for a similar effect, it's quite handy having some generic troop pieces for testing out new rule sets and periods that you don't have figures available for. I've actually a few games planned with them in the near future to try out some Napoleonic rules.

Obviously, it lacks some of the visual appeal of using actual miniatues, and the heft of Steve's excellent blocks, but I find the abstraction lets you concentrate on the action and let your imagination do the rest.

My first draft of them were done on a Saturday afternoon with some card, scissors and colouring pencils (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/05/04/2d-gaming/), which allowed for a bit of a battle in a bag (https://wordpress.com/block-editor/post/mmcvhistory.home.blog/92), but made slightly more robust ones printing them out and sticking them to thick squares of magnetic tape (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/05/22/paper-wars/) and in action (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/06/24/paper-wars-in-action/). There's links to download the printouts at the end of the last post there if you're interested in trying yourself.

I would recommend it as a way of trying out rulesets and warfare in a particular period to see how you like it before slapping down a wad of cash on figures you may never use!
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 16 October 2020, 12:04:06 AM
Quote from: Steve J on 15 October 2020, 07:33:05 AM
I actually find it easier to concentrate when using the blocks, as it's very clear what's what and where etc. I should point out that I only use these really for the 17thC to 19thC periods and not post WWI.

So Horse and Musket period only.  I guess you could use the infantry as combined Pike & Shot units but as you go further back into ancients and forward to moderns it gets rather complex and tortuous as the variations increase.  I am not sure at what point you merge into board gaming.


Quote from: Steve J on 15 October 2020, 07:33:05 AM
Re: the Warplan 5/5, I was given these by a fellow Blogger and it was first time using them. I found them perfectly fine for my needs and didn't feel they had dated much, if at all. The only thing I had to do was make some terrain calls based upon the ruleset being used, if that makes sense?

I would like a copy for my old school oppo that I have been gaming with regularly for 49 years.  He claims I never returned his copy in our school days so if I could find one to return that would be great!  I am not sure he would have a use for it now.


Quote from: mmcv on 15 October 2020, 09:00:19 AM
I'ved used 2D counters I made for a similar effect, it's quite handy having some generic troop pieces for testing out new rule sets and periods that you don't have figures available for. I've actually a few games planned with them in the near future to try out some Napoleonic rules.

Obviously, it lacks some of the visual appeal of using actual miniatues, and the heft of Steve's excellent blocks, but I find the abstraction lets you concentrate on the action and let your imagination do the rest.

My first draft of them were done on a Saturday afternoon with some card, scissors and colouring pencils (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/05/04/2d-gaming/), which allowed for a bit of a battle in a bag (https://wordpress.com/block-editor/post/mmcvhistory.home.blog/92), but made slightly more robust ones printing them out and sticking them to thick squares of magnetic tape (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/05/22/paper-wars/) and in action (https://mmcvhistory.home.blog/2019/06/24/paper-wars-in-action/). There's links to download the printouts at the end of the last post there if you're interested in trying yourself.

I would recommend it as a way of trying out rulesets and warfare in a particular period to see how you like it before slapping down a wad of cash on figures you may never use!

Yes, I tried using paper units for ancient armies after reading Featherstone's WAR GAMES back in the sixties and trying out his rules.  Your 2D blocks look much better than mine.    Having just finished the Second Punic War via ZOOM using Command & Colors: Ancients, for which I could use my considerable 6mm Punic Wars armies, my opponent wants to press on to Command & Colors: Napoleonics for which I have not a single figure and thought to print some material from Junior General to stick on some spare Pendraken bases that I have.  I recently acquired some Jenga blocks from the local charity shop but that was originally to create [WWII] blinds.  The various blocks that people are using give rise to some interesting alternative versions of this approach, although I am not convinced of the aesthetics of the approach. It strikes me as very peculiar when using 3D terrain but perhaps with 2D terrain as well it would make perfect sense and give a good visual effect, very close to Kriegsspiel.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Dave Fielder on 16 October 2020, 02:22:08 PM
Did he say "downsize" in his narrative? Hmmm .... just buy everything all again in 6mm #sorted
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: mmcv on 16 October 2020, 03:02:16 PM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 16 October 2020, 12:04:06 AM
So Horse and Musket period only.  I guess you could use the infantry as combined Pike & Shot units but as you go further back into ancients and forward to moderns it gets rather complex and tortuous as the variations increase.  I am not sure at what point you merge into board gaming.

Yes, I tried using paper units for ancient armies after reading Featherstone's WAR GAMES back in the sixties and trying out his rules.  Your 2D blocks look much better than mine.    Having just finished the Second Punic War via ZOOM using Command & Colors: Ancients, for which I could use my considerable 6mm Punic Wars armies, my opponent wants to press on to Command & Colors: Napoleonics for which I have not a single figure and thought to print some material from Junior General to stick on some spare Pendraken bases that I have.  I recently acquired some Jenga blocks from the local charity shop but that was originally to create [WWII] blinds.  The various blocks that people are using give rise to some interesting alternative versions of this approach, although I am not convinced of the aesthetics of the approach. It strikes me as very peculiar when using 3D terrain but perhaps with 2D terrain as well it would make perfect sense and give a good visual effect, very close to Kriegsspiel.

I agree with you on it being difficult to use abstract markers for ancient where there's a much greater proportion of unit type to deal with, in those cases you probably are best going with something like junior general and printout out units that look the part. Or else writing what the unit is on the bases. It works best for horse and musket, though pike and shot works reasonably well too since they tend to be combined units, so the type variety is low. I found the label and abstract unit approach worked quite well for 19thC. I'm currently experimenting with playtesting some feudal japanese rules using pencil and paper, but aim to migrate them to bases with stats/unit types written on them soon. Then obviously figures. But it's a great way to try out rules and periods before taking the plunge.

Another option is going for 2mm or 3mm stuff, which can be put together pretty easily. You can bang out most of an army in a few sittings. I've been doing this with the Crimean war; British and Russians all done along with some Turks, just French to do then can play a few battles. I've also got a bunch of pike and shot stuff in 2mm to do at some point as it's well suited. Gives it a bit more of a 3d aspect, and the terrain and buildings look great at that scale. Though again not so good when you need a lot of troop variety distinction for ancients, but perfect for pike and shot and horse and musket and age of rifle, and possible big battle 20th C too. Plus my Crimean troops will mostly double up well as Napoleonics as a that scale nuances of uniform are unimportant. You've the reds and the blue and the browns and the greens and not much beyond that!
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 19 October 2020, 06:06:28 PM
Quote from: mmcv on 16 October 2020, 03:02:16 PM
I agree with you on it being difficult to use abstract markers for ancient where there's a much greater proportion of unit type to deal with, in those cases you probably are best going with something like junior general and printout out units that look the part. Or else writing what the unit is on the bases. It works best for horse and musket, though pike and shot works reasonably well too since they tend to be combined units, so the type variety is low. I found the label and abstract unit approach worked quite well for 19thC. I'm currently experimenting with playtesting some feudal japanese rules using pencil and paper, but aim to migrate them to bases with stats/unit types written on them soon. Then obviously figures. But it's a great way to try out rules and periods before taking the plunge.

Another option is going for 2mm or 3mm stuff, which can be put together pretty easily. You can bang out most of an army in a few sittings. I've been doing this with the Crimean war; British and Russians all done along with some Turks, just French to do then can play a few battles. I've also got a bunch of pike and shot stuff in 2mm to do at some point as it's well suited. Gives it a bit more of a 3d aspect, and the terrain and buildings look great at that scale. Though again not so good when you need a lot of troop variety distinction for ancients, but perfect for pike and shot and horse and musket and age of rifle, and possible big battle 20th C too. Plus my Crimean troops will mostly double up well as Napoleonics as a that scale nuances of uniform are unimportant. You've the reds and the blue and the browns and the greens and not much beyond that!

I had not thought of going so small; are the figures not a bit fiddly to deal with on such a small scale?  I should have thought them no more than a blob of blue or red or ... .
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: mmcv on 19 October 2020, 10:50:45 PM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 19 October 2020, 06:06:28 PM
I had not thought of going so small; are the figures not a bit fiddly to deal with on such a small scale?  I should have thought them no more than a blob of blue or red or ... .

You're not far off, but actually it works really well for mass effect as you see the shape of the unit in a kind of "god's eye view" rather than each soldier modelled.

A few examples I found online:

2mm Napoleonic game, note the terrain and towns
(https://external-preview.redd.it/fePJAlnHRWfH4c-Ln8i6CbNAnmCYO9wdfE_2Ss9RE0c.jpg?auto=webp&s=80dbb7f51a6c9f569c40561314bfc3b08b66e77e)

Pike and shot as individual units
(https://arsmwargame.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/img_2681.jpg?w=1280)

And some fantastic bigger base pike and shot using the same figure range on show here


3mm Samurai
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x6WQhVNOFWc/W9XprJ82_HI/AAAAAAAABL4/xINswHqMwZsYpmH5StR2XAf6taM8NSpmQCLcBGAs/s280/dm1.jpg)

3mm French
(https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/hm_bbpui/111715/i6cv2wqrmv4pykvn92t7rvz1m0g5ox9v.jpeg)

And the beginning of my own efforts
(https://i.imgur.com/3OznC7a.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bn0cm5B.jpg)

So you are very much painting the representative of the unit rather than individual figures, but looks well for mass battles and some have done very nice work with them. You can base them to be on manageable sizes, e.g. my ones there are on 25mm squares.

I know a few members of this forum have more advanced projects in this scale as well, such as ACW. At 3mm you can just about work with individual figures showing, at 2mm it's the blocks of troops.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Steve J on 20 October 2020, 07:25:55 AM
The main issue I found with 2mm or 3mm figures, is being able to recognise each unit on the table, so labels are a must IMHO. If you get the terrain right as per the first 'photo, the effect is incredible and I've seen some impressive games too.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 20 October 2020, 04:15:40 PM
Quote from: mmcv on 19 October 2020, 10:50:45 PM
You're not far off, but actually it works really well for mass effect as you see the shape of the unit in a kind of "god's eye view" rather than each soldier modelled.

So you are very much painting the representative of the unit rather than individual figures, but looks well for mass battles and some have done very nice work with them. You can base them to be on manageable sizes, e.g. my ones there are on 25mm squares.

I know a few members of this forum have more advanced projects in this scale as well, such as ACW. At 3mm you can just about work with individual figures showing, at 2mm it's the blocks of troops.


Some impressive work there.  I do take the point that it is all about impression en masse rather than individual quality, which might even be better for my poor painting skills!  :D  With not much visible effective labelling, or other marking, is evidently a must.  I suppose trying it is the ultimate test. 2mm or 3mm, a 50% difference in scale!  ;D
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: mmcv on 20 October 2020, 08:23:11 PM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 20 October 2020, 04:15:40 PM
Some impressive work there.  I do take the point that it is all about impression en masse rather than individual quality, which might even be better for my poor painting skills!  :D  With not much visible effective labelling, or other marking, is evidently a must.  I suppose trying it is the ultimate test. 2mm or 3mm, a 50% difference in scale!  ;D

Yeah, the benefit is they're pretty cheap so you can get some to try out and see how you like the effect without too much lost. Irregular sell 2mm as individual blocks, though they do have some army packs too. There are some nice looking 3mm Oddzial Osmy available from Magister Militum in packs too, I plan to get the 3mm samurai at some point to try out and see how they look. Not sure how doable such small individual figures will be, compared to the blocks you get at 2mm.
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: hammurabi70 on 21 October 2020, 12:23:06 AM
Quote from: mmcv on 20 October 2020, 08:23:11 PM
Yeah, the benefit is they're pretty cheap so you can get some to try out and see how you like the effect without too much lost. Irregular sell 2mm as individual blocks, though they do have some army packs too. There are some nice looking 3mm Oddzial Osmy available from Magister Militum in packs too, I plan to get the 3mm samurai at some point to try out and see how they look. Not sure how doable such small individual figures will be, compared to the blocks you get at 2mm.

I have discovered another club member with 2mm Napoleonics so:
(1) I guess it will have to be 2mm
(2) I am going to have to add another scale to the collection and further lead to the mountain
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: sean66 on 21 October 2020, 05:57:18 AM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 21 October 2020, 12:23:06 AM
I have discovered another club member with 2mm Napoleonics so:
(1) I guess it will have to be 2mm
(2) I am going to have to add another scale to the collection and further lead to the mountain

it never stops Hammurabi70  :-
you'll know you have a problem when you realise you have the same period in three or more scales  :D
WW2 in 6/10 and 20mm for example. Modern also in 6 and 20mm.
Regards
Sean
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 21 October 2020, 07:37:03 AM
I must have major problems then :

For example WW2 Brits in 20, 15 6mm, Soeviet, German and American in 20, 15, 10 and 6mm etc...
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: mmcv on 21 October 2020, 08:34:03 AM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 21 October 2020, 07:37:03 AM
I must have major problems then :

For example WW2 Brits in 20, 15 6mm, Soeviet, German and American in 20, 15, 10 and 6mm etc...

Looks like there's a 2mm sized gap in your collection then  :d
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: sean66 on 21 October 2020, 09:46:24 AM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 21 October 2020, 07:37:03 AM
I must have major problems then :

For example WW2 Brits in 20, 15 6mm, Soeviet, German and American in 20, 15, 10 and 6mm etc...
Damn did you have to mention 15mm  :(
realized I have all the powers in 15mm as well  :'(
I think I need to go lie down  =)
regards
Sean
Title: Re: Operation Sealion Game 4
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 21 October 2020, 09:52:45 AM
Quote from: mmcv on 21 October 2020, 08:34:03 AM
Looks like there's a 2mm sized gap in your collection then  :d

Well I do have Brits and Germans for "Land Ironclads" in 2mm, quite a large costal force in both 1/300th and 1/6or700th, large British and German fleets in 1/3000th - plus lots of 1/600th aircraft, also 1/300th, a few 1/144th and a few 1/76/72