Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Rules => Topic started by: Waremblem on 05 August 2020, 02:47:35 AM

Title: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Waremblem on 05 August 2020, 02:47:35 AM
Hello - Having recently discovered the Pendraken 10mm ACW line I am thinking about painting up a Union army. I mostly enjoy playing at a grand tactical level - for example my favorite rules set of all time is Napoleon's Battles. So I'm sort of looking for a Napoleon's Battles for the ACW. Years ago I played Fire and Fury and while it is a decent set of rules, I don't love the basing - I feel you need too many and the units are cumbersome to move. After having done some research, I've come across Bloody Big Battles, On to Richmond and Altar of Freedom. Altar of Freedom looks splendid in ease of play and I've watched a demonstration game on Little Wars TV, but I wonder if the game isn't too generic and lacking historical detail? Does anyone have experience with these rule sets, or others that allow grand tactical wargaming in the ACW? I'm looking for - in order:


Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Techno on 05 August 2020, 06:38:54 AM
I'm sure one or more of the good folk here will be able to help with that, Waremblem !

As that was your first post.... a very warm welcome to the forum. :-h

Cheers - Phil :)
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 August 2020, 07:09:59 AM
Hello and Welcome.

My list would be

Black Powder (Glory Hallelujah suppliment) , Big Bloody Battles or Volley and Bayonet,
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Steve J on 05 August 2020, 07:17:51 AM
Welcome on board!

I too would recommend BP" with the GH! supplement, ditto Bloody Big Battles. With the right basing you can play both games, zooming in and out as it were at your leisure. We played Shiloh in an evening using BBB, to give you an idea of the scale it is played at. Both games are also solo friendly.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 05 August 2020, 07:42:29 AM
Moaning, beware most of us are insane, although I have a certicate to prove otherwise
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: mmcv on 05 August 2020, 08:20:25 AM
Welcome! I played Gettysburg with BBB and had a good game with it. I actually made labels and counters for it and printed it out to use them. That way I was able to test it out without owning any ACW figures.

I haven't played Alter of Freedom but from what I remember of Little Wars one of the authors biggest gripes with a lot of rule sets is that they are to generic and prefers those with conflict and period specific flavour. So I'd guess from that AoF wouldn't be too generic.

Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Dave Fielder on 05 August 2020, 08:36:45 AM
A great subject for your first post. I can also recommend Bloody Big Battles (BBB), Black Powder (BP) and even Volley and Bayonet (V&B). I have based my 6mm forces onto 30mm square bases that allow flexibility for all three rulesets. This gives a big battle feel and as Steve said, we've staged some large events in a small space. Have a good look over Steve's Blog: https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/search/label/Bloody%20Big%20Battles (https://wwiiwargaming.blogspot.com/search/label/Bloody%20Big%20Battles)
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Raider4 on 05 August 2020, 08:50:45 AM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 05 August 2020, 07:42:29 AM
Moaning, beware most of us are insane, although I have a certicate to prove otherwise

"I'm not crazy, my mother had me tested."
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: paulr on 05 August 2020, 09:21:41 AM
Welcome Waremblem :-h

A great first post

As others have said Black Powder, Bloody Big Battles and Volley & Bayonet are very popular

I haven't played the other two rule sets but use V&B for AWI as well as Napoleonic and have played one ACW game with them

V&B for me certainly ticks all the items on your list

V&B uses one stand for a Brigade easing movement and allow mini-dioramas if you wish (alternatively you can go for half size bases if you want to fit really big battles on a normal sized table)

You can find some useful information on V&B ACW with 6mm figures on half size bases here https://volleyandbayonet.wordpress.com/category/american-civil-war/ (https://volleyandbayonet.wordpress.com/category/american-civil-war/)
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Westmarcher on 05 August 2020, 10:15:01 AM
Welcome to the forum. You mentioned that you had watched a demo game on Little Wars TV. I believe there are two demo game videos (Antietam and Gettysburg) plus a rules review of Alter of Freedom. I've never played these rules myself so cannot comment but have you seen the rules review video? Of course, its author is one of the members of the Little Wars TV club (Greg) but here's a link anyway with comments from the other members:-

http://www.littlewarstv.com/altar-of-freedom.html (http://www.littlewarstv.com/altar-of-freedom.html)
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: fred. on 05 August 2020, 11:16:45 AM
I've not played that much ACW - the ACW players in our group are still looking for the right set of rules (sounds familiar)

I've played BP with 28mm figures. A very good looking but unsatisfyingly game. The union troops raced forward in a turn or so - then a massive but inconclusive musket duel happened at close range for many turns - with no clear way to break through other than rolling more 6s. There was a strange result with cavalry attacking emplaced artillery- I can't recall the details but we all thought it odd and spent a lot of time checking the rules.

We've played a couple of games of AoF and if you've seen the videos you will know this is a very different beast. In the games we played it did seem to be more about managing the time clock than moving the troops on the table. But some of this may have been down to the scenario and the limited choices for the defending Confederates. We played these games with cardboard counters using the top down images from junior general. These were a good choice for trying the rules I think it only took me an evening to do two armies.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: monkeynut on 05 August 2020, 04:25:52 PM
I have played Alter of Freedom, Volley and bayonet, BBB and Fire and Fury.
As with all sets of rules I find they all have their Pros and Cons , a "perfect" set to please all is like discovering a Unicorn sitting with a pot of gold under your Xmas tree. Only you will know what suits your playing style , figure availability, time constraints , gaming table size etc etc by experimenting,play what you enjoy! IMHO I like Fire and Fury ,you not so much. One mans muck is another mans brass.
Your idea of "fun"  "historical flavour " " ability to play major battles " and " feels right" will be totally different to the opinions of others.
It's a joy to paint Pendraken's ACW figures which I have recently converted to, look great painted up.
Wish you well on finding that "Unicorn ".
Happy gaming.
Welcome to the forum, as a newbie myself I've found you'll be able to glean a lot of info from the "veterans " posts , not always what you asked for ,need to know or even relevant 😳 , but always in good nature and a willingness to help.

🐵
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Steve J on 05 August 2020, 05:06:49 PM
QuoteOnly you will know what suits your playing style , figure availability, time constraints , gaming table size etc etc by experimenting,play what you enjoy!

So true.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Nick the Lemming on 05 August 2020, 05:51:00 PM
For really big games, I like Altar of Freedom, but BBB is an excellent game too (never played it with ACW, just European conflicts). I'm not a big fan of Black Powder, but Fire nd Fury isn't a bad choice. Haven't played that for ages though - just takes much too long compared with AoF. I also like Longstreet, but that's smaller scale than grand tactical.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Waremblem on 05 August 2020, 07:02:31 PM
Thank you for the greetings and suggestions. I will have to look into both BP and V&B. I'll also search out a video of BBB. For AoF I reviewed the Antietam game and the rules breakdown. The red flag for me was the reviewers statements about how the units are a bit generic. I also worry how the basing interacted looked a bit DBM and the bidding against a player for movement seems gamey. I recognize "feel and flavor" are subjective. For me, I'll harken back to Napeloen's Battles - it "feels" like the French are the French and the British are the British. So for the ACW, I want the Iron Brigade to feel like an elite formation. I like to see an ebb and flow of battle not pushing around pieces that feel like chess units which I think systems such as DBM or DBA convey. It seems several of you struggle with the same issues so maybe it is finding which set of rules you find something that really pops and others elements that you can live with.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 05 August 2020, 08:15:21 PM
Welcome to the forum Waremblem  :)

If you want some "different" ACW rules that emphise unit abilities what about Sam Mustafa's "Longstreet" set? They are card driven and so do not have any "DBx factor" in them and appear to be about the scale of battle that you are after?

I have never played ACW myself but his "Rommel" and other rules sets seem well regarded.

Good luck in your search.   

Cheers
Peter
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: paulr on 05 August 2020, 09:01:01 PM
The search for the perfect rules is a difficult one and it can be very hard to tell from videos, reviews and even reading the rules. These can at best give you a short list

The best way is to narrow this down is to try a few games and Fred's suggestion is a really good way to do that and avoid the risk of having to rebase
Quote from: fred. on 05 August 2020, 11:16:45 AM
We played these games with cardboard counters using the top down images from junior general. These were a good choice for trying the rules I think it only took me an evening to do two armies.

Quote from: Waremblem on 05 August 2020, 07:02:31 PM
It seems several of you struggle with the same issues so maybe it is finding which set of rules you find something that really pops and others elements that you can live with.
This is very true, there is also the option of using house rules to deal with things that you struggle to live with

There are unicorns out there, For King & Parliament, for the ECW being one recent example
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: hammurabi70 on 05 August 2020, 11:26:23 PM
My last ACW experience was PICKETT'S CHARGE, I was impressed.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Nick the Lemming on 06 August 2020, 02:24:29 AM
Quote from: paulr on 05 August 2020, 09:01:01 PM
The search for the perfect rules is a difficult one.

And even when you've found one, the next person might think they're complete arse - you can never appeal to everyone, and so unfortunately you have to go by trial and error, at least initially, until you just listen to me find other people wh seem to be on a similar wavelength.

QuoteThere are unicorns out there, For King & Parliament, for the ECW being one recent example

Case in point - I wouldn't wish FK&P on my worst enemy!
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Aksu on 06 August 2020, 04:59:06 AM
Hullo,
I've played Longstreet (a lot) and Pickett's Charge - very different to each other and very tactical in scale both. Longstreet is fun mayhem and PC is much more "normal" and slower. I've also played some Altar of Freedom which I liked, some BBB which I liked a lot, and quite a bit of Fire and Fury which I found a bit Fiddly  and Frustrating. I'd recommend BBB for similar mechanics but much more manageable for large battles. For small battles, 1v1 or multiplayer (brigade per player) I happen to like Longstreet, but Pickett's Charge is also nice for detail heavy games.
Cheers,
Aksu
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Waremblem on 06 August 2020, 05:42:55 AM
Is there an ACW scenario book for BBB?
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Chris Pringle on 06 August 2020, 06:04:56 AM
Thank you to all who have kindly mentioned BBB favourably.

There is no ACW book but there are scenarios for many ACW battles freely available from the BBB groups.io files:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
Look in the 1861 ACW folder:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles/files/1861%20American%20Civil%20War

You will find plenty of batreps on my BBBBlog to give you a sense of how the games go for us. In fact, my most recent post was about using BBB on Roll20 to fight First Bull Run remotely:
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2020/07/remote-wargaming-on-roll20.html

There's no 'official' BBB video, but noted BBB enthusiast and Balkan Wars author Prof Konstantinos Travlos has done quite a few of his group fighting BBB battles (including some ACW ones), and one he did specifically as an intro to the game:
https://phdleadhead.blogspot.com/2019/04/introduction-to-bloody-big-battles.html

Hope this helps!
Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: pierre the shy on 06 August 2020, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: Nick the Lemming on 06 August 2020, 02:24:29 AM
And even when you've found one, the next person might think they're complete arse - you can never appeal to everyone, and so unfortunately you have to go by trial and error, at least initially, until you just listen to me find other people wh seem to be on a similar wavelength.

Case in point - I wouldn't wish FK&P on my worst enemy!

As you say Nick, one mans trash is another man's treasure :) .....after a long search for a sutiable set of ECW era rules FK&P have become our group's go-to set - I really love them   :ar! :ar! ;)
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: mollinary on 06 August 2020, 01:02:28 PM
Thanks Pierre, it is nice to have supporters!   Sorry to hear Nick hates them so much, I wonder why?
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: T13A on 06 August 2020, 01:09:47 PM
Hi

FK&P, best ECW rules I have used and I go some way back!

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Waremblem on 07 August 2020, 01:10:25 AM
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 06 August 2020, 06:04:56 AM
Thank you to all who have kindly mentioned BBB favourably.

There is no ACW book but there are scenarios for many ACW battles freely available from the BBB groups.io files:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
Look in the 1861 ACW folder:
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles/files/1861%20American%20Civil%20War

You will find plenty of batreps on my BBBBlog to give you a sense of how the games go for us. In fact, my most recent post was about using BBB on Roll20 to fight First Bull Run remotely:
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2020/07/remote-wargaming-on-roll20.html

There's no 'official' BBB video, but noted BBB enthusiast and Balkan Wars author Prof Konstantinos Travlos has done quite a few of his group fighting BBB battles (including some ACW ones), and one he did specifically as an intro to the game:
https://phdleadhead.blogspot.com/2019/04/introduction-to-bloody-big-battles.html

Hope this helps!
Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/


Thank you for the links, Chris. I'll give them a look.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: robh on 21 August 2020, 01:16:41 PM
Altar of Freedom are not "generic" rules, they are very specific and feel different to something like Napoleons Battles or Grande Armee Napoleonics.  We played them a few times until one of our players (a tournament style player) worked out the strange initiative/activation subgame AoF uses and proceeded to show us how to ruin a game :(
Needless to say the rules did not come out again.  It is a novel mechanism and if your group are all "fun is important winning isn't" type gamers you may enjoy AoF.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: DaveH on 22 August 2020, 08:06:05 PM
Looking at AoF I think my biggest reservation is that it doesn't seem to be particularly solo suitable. How is BBB for solo players?
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: mmcv on 22 August 2020, 09:15:27 PM
Quote from: DaveH on 22 August 2020, 08:06:05 PM
Looking at AoF I think my biggest reservation is that it doesn't seem to be particularly solo suitable. How is BBB for solo players?

I've played BBB solo and it worked fairly well. Most scenarios have a few conditional rules and options to play out historical or what if outcomes and theres enough friction and decisions to make to keep things interesting.  There's a fairly active BBB community on groups.io with new scenarios uploaded for free as well.
Title: Re: ACW Grand Tactical Rules
Post by: Chris Pringle on 23 August 2020, 08:22:09 AM
Quote from: DaveH on 22 August 2020, 08:06:05 PM
Looking at AoF I think my biggest reservation is that it doesn't seem to be particularly solo suitable. How is BBB for solo players?

Thanks for the question, DaveH. BBB got rated 'Highly recommended' by Paul Le Long reviewing it in 'Lone Warrior', the journal of the Solo Wargamers' Association:
http://lonewarriorswa.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bloody-Big-Battles-rules.pdf

My own musings on solo gaming are on the BBBBlog:
https://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2016/06/solo-wargaming.html
I suppose my key point is 'the movement rolls provide an element of unpredictability that helps to make solo play interesting'.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles