Was prepping some of the Aztec range earlier today which included a rather frustrating half hour trying to affix a few back banners. Managed to get a few attached, mostly from luck and careful scaffolds to hold in place until dry but that's a massive faff.
Any tips on how to do it better.
Tried so far:
Superglue + backbanner held for a while by hand = fail
Superglue + backbanner on facedown model balanced on random offcuts + bluetac + more superglue = moderate success, though occasional additional things stuck on and slight loss of detail where superglue flowed.
Above techniques with the addition of baking powder to speed along = massive fail, would form into large clumps and fall off or if it did attach, cover all details and make it look like a giant swarm of wasps have built a nest on the poor guys back. Need to sand down or strip that one and see if it's salvageable.
Trying next time:
Carving a bit of a groove into the back to hopefully provide more grip.
Maybe try a resin rather than glue.
Milliput to shape in place.
Any other or better suggestions?
These frustratingly fiddly faffy bits are one of my least favourite parts of the hobby...
For something like that you need tiny amounts of baking powder.
Assembled and undercoated some 15mm Ashigaru for a friend recently. Tiny streak of superglue on figure's back, run the banner pole through the baking powder, gentlest of taps if I got too much powder on (i.e. more than a few grains), apply banner to back. Few seconds later, solid bond. Worked for me. YMMV!
Glue in hole, then bend 90 degrees worked best for me!
I have been sticking on sashimonos recently. I use superglue to begin, then a small dab of two-part epoxy to make a more reliable bond.
Thanks!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 May 2020, 12:57:59 AM
For something like that you need tiny amounts of baking powder.
I did initially try something like that but couldn't get a solid enough hold so tried upping the quantities. Might just be the low surface area.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 08 May 2020, 01:13:37 AM
Glue in hole, then bend 90 degrees worked best for me!
Interesting... May try that, assuming I don't snap them on bending!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 May 2020, 04:11:50 AM
I have been sticking on sashimonos recently. I use superglue to begin, then a small dab of two-part epoxy to make a more reliable bond.
How are you holding them in place while it dries? Just by hand/tweezers?
If you hold by hand they will stick to your fingers, honest !
Superglue on back of figure. Press banner into contact. Wait a moment, then switch the hand that was holding the banner, applying pressure with tip of fingernail. That usually does the job.
Quote from: ianrs54 on 08 May 2020, 09:26:39 AM
If you hold by hand they will stick to your fingers, honest !
Yes they will indeed!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 May 2020, 09:38:48 AM
Superglue on back of figure. Press banner into contact. Wait a moment, then switch the hand that was holding the banner, applying pressure with tip of fingernail. That usually does the job.
Maybe I'm just not patient enough but doesn't seem to hold well enough in place.
It just needs to hold it until the epoxy sets.
Yeah it's maybe the epoxy I'm missing in that regard to give a bit of a firmer hold.
Don't, too fiddly in 10mm for me. :)
Quote from: Orcs on 08 May 2020, 01:27:56 PM
Don't, too fiddly in 10mm for me. :)
Tempting, but it's such a big part of the look of them. I'm only doing a few per unit though to reduce the pain somewhat.
The separate sashimono are one thing that would put me off doing a medieval Japanese army...so many backbanners.
So I finally took the plunge and started on the feudal Japanese army
Four back banners done and already my hand is cramping! With the Aztecs I went with drilling a small hole then bending it up and sealing with resin. Don't think that'll work with the sashimono though as they've a shorter pole. Went with the superglue and baking soda but still requires holding in place for about a minute each which is very fiddly. Then I'll likely need to apply a little epoxy for strength afterwards as when I just used superglue on the Aztecs ones they'd pop off at the first touch of a paintbrush.
What superglue are people using for fast bond? I've loctite at the moment but might need to find something faster setting for the sake of my sanity.
I use the cheapest stuff from poundland - but beware it can cause damage to the eyes in some people.
I use Loctite and with baking soda and the bond is pretty much instant. Not overdoing either the superglue or the baking soda seems to be the key. In my experience at least.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 20 July 2021, 02:23:43 PM
I use Loctite and with baking soda and the bond is pretty much instant. Not overdoing either the superglue or the baking soda seems to be the key. In my experience at least.
Interesting, I wonder was I using too much super glue. I did your trick of tapping off the banner so there was only a few grains of soda, but maybe there's too much superglue being used. I might try dipping the pole into the glue rather than applying it to the figure to see if that works any better, though I was only applying a small amount. The fastest to bond took about 30-40 seconds, while the last one seemed to take several attempts over a minute or two. Doesn't seem like masses of time but for holding such a fiddly thing over and over it is somewhat of a strain.
You could try holding it in place and drip in from side,
Blutack
Use a fair blob to lie the figure face down into, super glue on the back, then use the rest of the blue tack to hold the banner in place while it sets
I did file the bottom of the pole on some of the banners to a 45ยบ angle to help with the fit (this this was on some of the samurai)
Thanks for the ideas. I found using a little less superglue actually helped fix them in place quickly. Did a bunch more tonight and went a bit smoother. Going to need to order some more already. I'd only ordered a small amount to decide how I want everything to look so once I've these test units painted and I'm happy will get a bunch more in.
When I was doing the Aztecs I did construct some elaborate scaffolds out of blu tac and lolly sticks to fix in place until set. The worst was trying to affix banners to the back of a Chinese chariot, for whatever reason they just wouldn't hold.
I've added a small dab of epoxy to the banners I've done for a little more strength.
Practice helps as well......
There are a number of things to remember with superglue. It reacts to moisture, which is why it bonds skin so well. You need two flat, non porous, surfaces for the best bond. It is less good at bonding porous surfaces. The more glue used, the longer it takes to activate. It has a definite 'shelf life', in my experience and once opened, becomes less effective with time. Gel and liquid glue have different properties and specific applications. If you are looking for something that give a little more support while activating, try using gel. I always use gel when rigging a model ship, for example, as the thread is porous and gel holds it in place better while it cures.
Using baking powder with superglue is useful if you're using the glue as a filler, or for bonding porous surfaces. Otherwise is unnecessary, messy and dangerous. It produces toxic fumes and gets very hot, sufficient to burn skin. Once set, though, it is very hard indeed, almost like concrete but almost impossible to file/sand/cut etc. I gave up using it a long time ago, mainly because there are better proper fillers out there for modelling applications, and better and safer ways to accelerate curing.
There are two things you might try to activate superglue. The first is to buy an aerosol spray of superglue activator. Usually about a fiver from Halfords or Screw fix. These are specifically designed to accelerate curing time on difficult or porous surfaces. Their effect is instantaneous.
The other option is a fine spray of water from an atomiser. I use a bottle that once held kitchen surface disinfectant. It has a lever action pump, you know the sort of thing. If you need one in a hurry, you can buy an empty atomiser, usually called a travel spray bottle or something similar for a couple of quid or less. Boots do one for pennies.
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 21 July 2021, 06:46:07 AM
Practice helps as well......
You're not wrong, just have to make sure I'm in a patient mindset!
Quote from: John Cook on 21 July 2021, 08:09:24 AM
There are a number of things to remember with superglue. It reacts to moisture, which is why it bonds skin so well. You need two flat, non porous, surfaces for the best bond. It is less good at bonding porous surfaces. The more glue used, the longer it takes to activate. It has a definite 'shelf life', in my experience and once opened, becomes less effective with time. Gel and liquid glue have different properties and specific applications. If you are looking for something that give a little more support while activating, try using gel. I always use gel when rigging a model ship, for example, as the thread is porous and gel holds it in place better while it cures.
Using baking powder with superglue is useful if you're using the glue as a filler, or for bonding porous surfaces. Otherwise is unnecessary, messy and dangerous. It produces toxic fumes and gets very hot, sufficient to burn skin. Once set, though, it is very hard indeed, almost like concrete but almost impossible to file/sand/cut etc. I gave up using it a long time ago, mainly because there are better proper fillers out there for modelling applications, and better and safer ways to accelerate curing.
There are two things you might try to activate superglue. The first is to buy an aerosol spray of superglue activator. Usually about a fiver from Halfords or Screw fix. These are specifically designed to accelerate curing time on difficult or porous surfaces. Their effect is instantaneous.
The other option is a fine spray of water from an atomiser. I use a bottle that once held kitchen surface disinfectant. It has a lever action pump, you know the sort of thing. If you need one in a hurry, you can buy an empty atomiser, usually called a travel spray bottle or something similar for a couple of quid or less. Boots do one for pennies.
Thanks for this.
Once I get into the swing of it I may try doing some with and some without baking soda to see if it makes that much of a difference. though given it's a round pole attaching to textured armour I suspect it does help fill that gap a little. As Ithoriel suggested, I only use a few grains.
The superglue activator I suspect might be too messy as these are very fine attachments, but the atomiser could be a good option, will have to have a rummage and see if we have one to give it a go.
poloionc ships some time. I do no more than 2 at a time and they take an hour each.
Quote from: mmcv on 21 July 2021, 08:24:49 AM
The superglue activator I suspect might be too messy as these are very fine attachments, but the atomiser could be a good option, will have to have a rummage and see if we have one to give it a go.
Superglue activator evaporates within seconds of application. It isn't messy at all. From what you say about the textured surface, I'd use superglue gel, which will tend to fill the textured surface, and an an activator.
Quote from: John Cook on 21 July 2021, 05:03:31 PM
Superglue activator evaporates within seconds of application. It isn't messy at all. From what you say about the textured surface, I'd use superglue gel, which will tend to fill the textured surface, and an an activator.
Maybe wasteful is more the word, as it's a spray-on and it's only a couple of mm of bonding area so would be difficult to spray suitably I imagine? though I do see there are paint on ones you can get too.
I have tried gels in the past and found them to be quite brittle, though if it just needs to hold until the resin gets added that might be okay. Only downside of using the resin for strength if it blobs you lose details. Fine for the back banners but not so great for the banner holders. They may be fine without it though as can drill a little if needed on them.
I was able to paint the primer onto the current batch I affixed without any breaking off, so will have to see how they hold up to painting as well. Hopefully reasonably strong.
Quote from: John Cook on 21 July 2021, 08:09:24 AM
Using baking powder with superglue is useful if you're using the glue as a filler, or for bonding porous surfaces. Otherwise is unnecessary, messy and dangerous. It produces toxic fumes and gets very hot, sufficient to burn skin. Once set, though, it is very hard indeed, almost like concrete but almost impossible to file/sand/cut etc. I gave up using it a long time ago, mainly because there are better proper fillers out there for modelling applications, and better and safer ways to accelerate curing.
I cut myself a while back and as the cut would not stop bleeding put some super glue on it, but it was bleeding to fast for thwe glue to activate - so I sprinkled on some baking powder !!!!! I ran very quickly to the tap shouting all sorts of expletives. :)