With a couple weeks off from work and nationwide isolation I'm making very rapid progress on my DBA Punic War project http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,19425.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,19425.0.html)
I've therefore started thinking about my next project for this year :-\
This project will be in the one true scale 10mm :)
Our group has reached 'peak rules' with us using so many sets of rules we have some difficulty remembering them when we get round to playing them
I'm therefore limited to new sub-periods for our existing rule sets
There are three rule sets that we use with 10mm figures
- De Bellis Antiquitatis DBA
- Volley & Bayonet V&B
- If the Lord Spares us ITLSU
DBA
I currently have forces for the First Crusade and am working on the Punic Wars
I tend to collect 6 or more :-[ DBA armies for each period as we tend to play Big Battle DBA and have found the suggested lists of armies from the DBA Campaigns Suggested Six-Player Historical Campaigns very useful
Looking at these and the Pendraken ranges I've done a bit of digging on three possible periods
I'm interested in people's thoughts in general and have some specific questions as well
Norman Conquest 1066AD
III/19a Welsh 580-1149AD, III/72 Anglo-Danish 1014-1075AD, III/45 Pre-Feudal Scots 842-1124AD, III/40b Vikings 850-1280AD, III/52 Normans 888-1072AD, III/52 Western Frankish 888-1072AD
What would people suggest for the following troop types:
- Welsh - General as uchelwyr cavarly
- Pre-Feudal Scots - Galwegian warband
- Vikings - Irish Auxilia
- Normans & Western Frankish
- formed archers (Bw in DBA)
- servants, grooms & peasants (Hd in DBA)
- Gascon javelinmen both as Psiloi on foot and as Light Horse
This does seem quite close in time if not space to the First Crusade
100 Years War 1369AD
IV/16 Scotland 1124-1513AD, IV/62b 100 Year's War English 1334-1414AD, IV/64b Medieval French 1347-1400AD, IV/57b Low Countries 1330-1410AD, IV/76 Early Burgundian 1363-1471AD, IV/68c Aragonese Army 1340-1478AD or IV/68d Castilian Army 1340-1478AD
How do people find using the same figures from the same Late European Medieval range for both sides, e.g. there are only two poses of Dismounted Knights for all sides
The currently released TB line range looks a bit too early to my untrained eye
What would people suggest for the following troop types:
- Medieval French - Pavisiers Sp in DBA
- Low Countries - Guildsmen with plancon Bd in DBA
- Castilian Army - Jinetes Light Horse
Louis the Spider 1471AD The War of the Roses including the Europeans
IV/83a Lancaster 1455-1458, IV/83a York 1455-1458, IV/82a France Ordonnance 1445-1480AD, IV/85a Burgundian Ordnnance 1471-1477AD, IV/79b Later Swiss 1425-1477AD, IV/13c Medieval German 1440-1493AD
Again how do people find using the same figures from the same Late European Medieval range for both sides, e.g. there are only two poses of Dismounted Knights for all sides
The currently released TB line range looks a bit too early to my untrained eye
What would people suggest for the following troop types:
- Lancaster & York - Currours cavalry
- France Ordonnance - Gascon foot skirmishers Ps in DBA
- Medieval German - Petronels cavalry
Is ELM17 Hussite war wagon suitable for a Medieval German war wagon?
What figures are used for the Spear in these army packs:
- ELM-AP-E Late 100YW English Army Pack
- ELM-AP-F Late 100YW French Army Pack
I'll share some thoughts on the other two rule sets once I've done some painting ;)
Volley & Bayonet
V&B covers the period 1700 to 1890, our group already has extensive Napoleonic forces in 6mm and I have AWI in 10mm
Seven Years War is probably too close in time to AWI
I've experimented with V&B variants for the Sudan and the Indian Mutiny and have some close to playable rules
Unfortunately our group has been lukewarm on both
One or more of the many 19th Century European wars is a possibility. I know very little about this period
What forces would give the most flexibility in terms of opponents and range of battles?
The War of the Pacific probably is best played with specific rules
Last but not least is the American Civil War which is widely played with V&B although I don't think I've played this sub-period with V&B
I do wonder if it is a little one dimensional with infantry, infantry, some artillery, infantry, more infantry and some cavalry :-\
If the Lord Spares Us
Is an older TooFat Lardies' set of rules for the Middle East in WW1 with the company as the unit of maneuver
We already have 10mm forces for the Middle East and Early war in France
East Africa would not be that different from the Middle East, but would have some different troop types and terrain
I was wondering about using them for the Spanish Civil War or perhaps some of the Balkan or other wars in the lead up to WWI (I already have ships for this period)
Was the Spanish Civil War similar enough to the mobile parts of WWI, with more vehicles, or was it really a proto-WWII?
What Pendraken figures could I use for the Ottomans, Greeks, Italians, Bulgarians, Austro-Hungarians in 1900-1913?
I must have a look at some of KTravlos's posts
Or maybe the Greek-Turkish War 1919-1923...
Would they be different enough from WWI to be a worthwhile project?
DBA
The TB line would fit in okay, medieval armour was never particularly uniform and certain effective styles never really went out of fashion. So mail and conical or rounded helms will fit most periods, e.g. 100 YW, for a bit of variety. Not everyone could afford the latest and greatest armour styles! Also note that most of the medieval stuff seems to be in the Teutonic section for some reason, in case you didn't look there.
I'd suggest looking in the Early 16th C. English/Scots range as well for some further options in stand ins for the later medieval stuff. The Highlanders particularly.
Some of the late medieval bits from the Celtic fringe (Irish kerns, Welsh spears, etc) could stand in for a broad range from dark to late medieval.
It's even worth pillaging the dark ages bits for early medieval.
Haven't a chance to look into specifics of the ones you mentioned but if you've not explored the ranges above might be worth a look.
Other thing I meant to say, there's so many colour and heraldry options with medieval that using similar figures won't look too bad as they'll all be in different colours and patterns of heraldry
For Galloglas I used ancient British.
Late Roman cavalry work well for dark age heavies, mixed with Picts.
1866 might be a good one?
Armies for Volley and Bayonet mid 19th Century Europe.
Prussian: fought the Danes 1864, the Austrians 1866 and the French 1870-71
French: fought the Russians in the Crimea 1853-56, Austrians 1859, Prussians 1870-71
Austrians: fought the Italians and French 1859, the Danes in 1864, and the Prussians and Italians 1866
Italians: Fought the Austrians in 1859 and 1866.
Russians: Fought the French, British and the Turks 1853-56.
Danes: Fought the Prussians and Austrians in 1864.
British: Fought the Russians in 1853-56.
QuoteOur group has reached 'peak rules' with us using so many sets of rules we have some difficulty remembering them when we get round to playing them
Play Warmaster, xxC and BP.
That way you can play a set of rules *just* different enough that you don't realise you are doing it wrong until halfway through.
"Sorry, are you sure command distance isn't 20cm?"
We've managed to occasionally do that with a much more diverse collection of rules ;D ;D
Thanks, some useful food for though there
Quote from: mmcv on 25 March 2020, 11:28:43 AM
The TB line would fit in okay, medieval armour was never particularly uniform and certain effective styles never really went out of fashion. So mail and conical or rounded helms will fit most periods, e.g. 100 YW, for a bit of variety. Not everyone could afford the latest and greatest armour styles! Also note that most of the medieval stuff seems to be in the Teutonic section for some reason, in case you didn't look there...
How well do the TB Line fit in with Late European Medieval range :-
Would you be happy to mix them on the same base, to add different poses?
How 'accurate' would mixing the different styles of armour, as suggested by mmcv, be (particularly for the 100 Years War and Wars of the Roses)?
What figures are used for the Spear in these army packs:
- ELM-AP-E Late 100YW English Army Pack
- ELM-AP-F Late 100YW French Army Pack
Can anyone point me at some good online heraldry sources for the HYW & the War of the Roses
These two are looking front runners for a prompt order to Pendraken
19th Century Europe is probably a longer term project
Quote from: paulr on 26 March 2020, 09:10:16 AM
How well do the TB Line fit in with Late European Medieval range :-
Would you be happy to mix them on the same base, to add different poses?
How 'accurate' would mixing the different styles of armour, as suggested by mmcv, be (particularly for the 100 Years War and Wars of the Roses)?
I'd say fairly accurate, but depends on where in the war you want. Full plate armour didn't really come into use until the tail end of the 100YW in the 15th century, so mail and spears are pretty accurate for the mid war and indeed would still be in use late war amongst the standard infantry and those who couldn't afford full plate. Based on your lists it's the mid period you're aiming for, Crecy to Agincourt, so TB would mix in well, both infantry and cavalry. Later war, Agincourt and beyond you'd start to see more fully articulated plate in use, though much of the infantry would still be similarly attired to their predecessors. So you could always do a couple of extra stands of late dismounted knights if you want to do later battles and swap them out for the rest of the war. Though I'd be fairly happy mixing them myself as people would use whatever was available. I'd say the late medieval range would look more out of place at Crecy than the TB line would at Agincourt.
If you're planning to do WotR as well though I'd maybe suggest using TB line as the mainstay of the 100YW and late medieval as the WotR core. By then full plate was much more common so I don't think the TB Line knights would mix so well there, though the infantry would still work pretty well. I'm not quite so familiar with WotR though so I don't think I could tell you much beyond what a quick Google would find!
I actually have a couple of packs on the way from the late medieval range to try and pad out my crusader forces for variety (assuming not too out of place), so I can send you some pics of them beside TB line troops for comparison. The TB tend to be a little chunkier but I'm hoping not so much as to stand out, we'll see.
I will plug my mate Nik who is a reenactor for WoTR
The release of Twilight of the Soldier Kings will now let me start a SYW project at a reasonable cost. Work already underway
on my first Austrian brigades.
Also will be starting on British and Hanoverian units for my 15mm French Revolution armies.
Stay safe all
Quote from: mollinary on 25 March 2020, 04:19:23 PM
Armies for Volley and Bayonet mid 19th Century Europe.
Prussian: fought the Danes 1864, the Austrians 1866 and the French 1870-71
French: fought the Russians in the Crimea 1853-56, Austrians 1859, Prussians 1870-71
Austrians: fought the Italians and French 1859, the Danes in 1864, and the Prussians and Italians 1866
Italians: Fought the Austrians in 1859 and 1866.
Russians: Fought the French, British and the Turks 1853-56.
Danes: Fought the Prussians and Austrians in 1864.
British: Fought the Russians in 1853-56.
In 6mm, a simple generic army of infantry in blue with blue kepis and light blue trousers can pass muster for a number of different armies (with a few separate flags of the appropriate types if you want):
- Union for ACW
- Danes for 1864
- Italians for the Crimea or 1859 or 1866 (blue kepis, black shakos, who's counting?)
- Greeks vs Turks in 1897
At a pinch and if you're not too fussy about details, you can also press them into service as Hanoverians for their only battle at Langensalza 1866, or to pad out your French garde mobile for 1870, or as Romanian line infantry v the Turks in 1877.
Chris
Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/
Quote from: paulr on 26 March 2020, 09:10:16 AM
How well do the TB Line fit in with Late European Medieval range :-
What figures are used for the Spear in these army packs:
- ELM-AP-E Late 100YW English Army Pack
- ELM-AP-F Late 100YW French Army Pack
They fit in great, almost the same height and slightly more heft to them, so they work fine alongside the ELM range.
The spear in both of those packs is from the ELM8 Welsh Spearmen code.
Quote from: paulr on 27 March 2020, 03:27:59 AM
Can anyone point me at some good online heraldry sources for the HYW & the War of the Roses
From my mate:
this should be what you need - https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2018/09/war-of-roses-livery-colours-database.html - clink on the Search the Livery Colours Database link. Although it isn't explained the colour under Livery I in the one on the person's right (so left as you look at them) and Livery II on their left.
Quote from: mmcv on 27 March 2020, 09:36:01 AM
I'd say fairly accurate, but depends on where in the war you want. Full plate armour didn't really come into use until the tail end of the 100YW in the 15th century, so mail and spears are pretty accurate for the mid war and indeed would still be in use late war amongst the standard infantry and those who couldn't afford full plate. Based on your lists it's the mid period you're aiming for, Crecy to Agincourt, so TB would mix in well, both infantry and cavalry. Later war, Agincourt and beyond you'd start to see more fully articulated plate in use, though much of the infantry would still be similarly attired to their predecessors. So you could always do a couple of extra stands of late dismounted knights if you want to do later battles and swap them out for the rest of the war. Though I'd be fairly happy mixing them myself as people would use whatever was available. I'd say the late medieval range would look more out of place at Crecy than the TB line would at Agincourt.
If you're planning to do WotR as well though I'd maybe suggest using TB line as the mainstay of the 100YW and late medieval as the WotR core. By then full plate was much more common so I don't think the TB Line knights would mix so well there, though the infantry would still work pretty well. I'm not quite so familiar with WotR though so I don't think I could tell you much beyond what a quick Google would find!
I actually have a couple of packs on the way from the late medieval range to try and pad out my crusader forces for variety (assuming not too out of place), so I can send you some pics of them beside TB line troops for comparison. The TB tend to be a little chunkier but I'm hoping not so much as to stand out, we'll see.
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I'll probably do one or the other at the moment leaning towards 100YW
If you could pop a couple pics on this thread it would be much appreciated
Thanks Chris, I'm looking for a 10mm project but a generic army is an interesting approach
Thanks Leon & Lemmy
Hundred Years War is looking more and more interesting :-\
Several of the armies have a number of variants over the period so I'll have a look what I need to field all the variants
Thanks again for the feedback
I suspect my next project will be 10mm NATO for Battlegroup Northag - the Falklands range will supply the Brits, Clogies and Belgums and probably Danes...
Quote from: paulr on 27 March 2020, 07:28:23 PM
Thanks Chris, I'm looking for a 10mm project but a generic army is an interesting approach
Thanks Leon & Lemmy
Duh, yeah, I meant 10mm - just my own generic blue army with interchangeable flags is in 6mm.
It works for late C19 Dutch, Belgians and Swiss as well, if you're into what-if wars!
Quote from: paulr on 27 March 2020, 07:22:27 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion. I'll probably do one or the other at the moment leaning towards 100YW
If you could pop a couple pics on this thread it would be much appreciated
Yes no problem, hopefully they'll arrive in the next couple of days and I'll fire some pics up.
It's definitely an interesting period with a lot of variety on offer. One I'd like to do myself at some point in the distant future. I've actually a few bases if billmen and archers (from another manufacturer) as the first 10mm troops I ever painted, though ended up going for the crusades instead.
Hey paul, my order arrived today so as promised here are some photos:
This is a mix of the late medieval range unarmoured pike and gallowglass with some TB line infantry:
(https://i.imgur.com/B15iHFo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Q8PGaoY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/P151UrX.jpg)
This is the cavalry - TB line cavalry is a lot bigger and chunkier than Pendraken standard so I probably wouldn't mix them on the same bases. I don't have any from their medieval cavalry range but can see it against some of the other Pendraken cavalry which I imagine use similar horse scales. The black one is from the Norman range, the others are arab cavalry.
(https://i.imgur.com/Cmp6P5L.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wbmtFyL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fEmZovJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gI0MtDa.jpg)
Here's the medieval base mixed in with some bits from the Norman range (they're a bit smaller and finer so don't mix as well, but they're likely too early for you anyway).
(https://i.imgur.com/DxNWxt4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/vefzEYC.jpg)
So overall I'd be happy mixing the infantry between the TB and Medieval range, but the cavalry I'd probably go for different bases, unless the Medieval cavalry is chunkier than the rest of the Pendraken range, I'm sure Leon could confirm that one.
Looks fun
Looking forward to seeing these progress ! :)
Cheers - Phil
Medieval can be a lot of fun, lots of opportunity for colour and as the infantry tend to be a hodgepodge of different types can mix and match a few different packs together.
Looking forward to seeing what Paul does with the 100YW project!
Many thanks for the pictures mmcv
I must have been looking at the various packs at bit as I can identify which figures are from which packs at a glance :-B
The TB knights definitely don't mix on the same base with the Normans or the Arabs, I wonder how they compare to the ELM knights :-\
The caparisons are certainly larger than the barding on ELM1 Mounted knights, barded horses; they look more like ELM36 14th Century Knights
It looks like I can use the TB foot but maybe not the mounted :-\ :-\
Quote from: Techno on 01 April 2020, 05:22:10 PM
Looking forward to seeing these progress ! :)
Cheers - Phil
Seconded :)
Quote from: paulr on 01 April 2020, 07:51:03 PM
Many thanks for the pictures mmcv
I must have been looking at the various packs at bit as I can identify which figures are from which packs at a glance :-B
The TB knights definitely don't mix on the same base with the Normans or the Arabs, I wonder how they compare to the ELM knights :-
The caparisons are certainly larger than the barding on ELM1 Mounted knights, barded horses; they look more like ELM36 14th Century Knights
It looks like I can use the TB foot but maybe not the mounted :- :-
No worries, wish I'd a sample of the ELM cavalry to share too, I did find I'd a EMM knight who was the same size as the Norman and Arab so no help there.
The foot mix well so I'd recommend using a variety. I'm using four different packs all mixed up for my crusader infantry. Plus a pack of knights as separate bases (for dismounted/attached).
I started my army using a different manufacturer who have chunkier knights so the TB mix okay with them, but wouldn't mix with Pendraken standard cavalry. Leon may be able to weigh in on whether the ELM use the same horses, suspect they do so would be smaller than TB.
How's your plan coming together, any bits you're still pondering over?
Looking good - I like the mixed foot bases.
The TB Line cavalry is a lot bigger than the Pendraken cavalry. I've found cavalry sizes vary much more between 10mm manufacturers than infantry.
TB cavalry are some of the biggest, similar in size to GW Warmaster Empire cavalry. Pendraken and Magister Militium cavalry are towards the smaller end. But infantry from all 4 work together pretty well. And as well as variation between manufacturers, individual manufacturers aren't that consistent either - GW Bretonian cavalry is much slighter more in size with Pendraken.
All in all if you have separate units its not too noticeable, though odd times opposing bases end up fighting it can suddenly look like giants vs midgets.
Quote from: fred. on 01 April 2020, 09:32:00 PM
The TB Line cavalry is a lot bigger than the Pendraken cavalry. I've found cavalry sizes vary much more between 10mm manufacturers than infantry.
TB cavalry are some of the biggest, similar in size to GW Warmaster Empire cavalry. Pendraken and Magister Militium cavalry are towards the smaller end.
I find MM cavalry to be a bit bigger and chunkier than Pendraken, not quite as big as TB but more similar in style to TB than the finer details of Pendraken. Irregular I find closer in scale to Pendraken. Most of my knights are MM, so expanding them with TB is more practical than Pendraken standard. I might experiment with mixing TB and MM on the same base at some point and see how it looks.
Use Pendraken for a lot of the horse archers though as separate bases look fine and Arab and turk horses tended to be smaller anyway.
Once the TB Islamics come out the Mamlukes will get reinforced though!
Thanks Fred & mmcv
I've decided to not use the mounted TB Line figures as I'm doing DBA armies so the figures really need to mix well either on the element or on adjacent elements :(
I've decided to use some ELM28 Mounted knights, unbarded horses (30) and ELM36 14th Century Knights (22) to add variety to ELM1 Mounted knights, barded horses (85) :)
8 poses for Knights with 4 figures per element should be pretty varied :)
I think I've worked out figures for everything now, I'll let the order sit for a day and review again to see if there is anything I want to tweak :-\
Excellent, I look forward to seeing what you do with them all. Sounds like you've got a good plan.
There is one thing I'm having trouble making my mind up on :-\
The plan is to mainly play Big Battle DBA using 3 armies per side so I'm planning on building two French and two English armies covering all the options
I'm also looking at having one ally each fighting with the French and English
I'm looking to build four different allies with the English and French being able to pick one of three of the four as ally for each game:
- Scottish - always allied to the French
- Low Countries - always allied to the English
- Burgundian - mainly allied to the French but were allied to the English (1419 to 1435)
The fourth ally is the one I'm having trouble with, I'm looking for someone mainly allied to the English but also allied to the French of part of the period
At this stage possibilities are:
- Portuguese
- Argonese (perhaps a bit internally focused)
- Castilian (seem to be mainly French allies)
- Navarrese
I'd be interested in thoughts on which of these or any others might fit the fourth ally slot; mainly an English Ally but also allied to the French for part of the war would be ideal :-\
Are there any army lists for the Papacy? As the Papal States and Avignon Papacy were involved politically. They were obviously more of a funder than an active engager, but could maybe do some fom of mercenary company army to represent Papal involvement? Or even a standard mercenary army for the time period that could fight for either side if the lists allow. There was a lot of mercenaries around at the time, mostly in the lull periods, but no doubt some partook in the war itself.
Portugal is England's oldest ally - going to the reign of Richard II.
But I am not sure that they also allied with France, but I think having a Free Company force might be helpful here, as Castile had a major civil war for example - with French or English dominated Free Companies supporting either side.
I am not sure about Aragonese allies TBH. But in Spain you could add in a Moorish/Andalusian force maybe?
Bretons and Norman allies might also be an option.
Nice project.
Mark
The Papacay is covered by the Italian Condotta list and certainly fought the French but doesn't list the English as an enemy :) :(
A Free company is definitely worth looking at :-\
I'll also have a look at fielding both Portugal & Castile as the troop types are similar and how many people can identify their heraldry at sight :-\ ;)
I've decided I'll go with a suitably international Free Company :)
Looks like I'll need just over 1,300 figures
Excellent choice!
I've done a little background reading on the Free Companies
The largest is estimated to have had 15,000 men :o :o :o
They tried to capture the Pope for ransom, admittedly after he had called for a crusade against them :o
This particular group, Tard-Venus, had besieged and captured towns and defeated at least one french army sent against them
Thanks again for the suggestion, I think that definitely warrants a 12 element DBA army (20 including all the options) ;)
So, what you doing next week? ;D
Going back to work, working from home :( :)
I've had just over a couple of weeks of pre-arranged leave, "to reduce my leave balance"
Once I've confirmed there are no likely changes to my employment status I'll be ordering my Hundred Years War project
I'd be very surprised if there has been any change
It looks as though my employment status hasn't changes while I've been on leave and is unlikely to change for the foreseeable future so I've emailed Leon the order for my HYW project :)
My painting will slow a bit as I'm now working from home rather than being on leave
Leon has already calculated my order and advised me of the cost :)
I'm expecting a Paypal invoice forthwith ;)
:D looking forward to seeing it progress!