Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Releases, Requests and Photos! => Previous Years' Releases => New Releases! => 2019 Releases => Topic started by: Leon on 01 November 2019, 10:29:23 PM

Title: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Leon on 01 November 2019, 10:29:23 PM
Some new releases for the modern gamers now with the Saladin and Saracen armoured cars now available!   These were both in production from the early 1950's through to the 1990's and were used by a variety of countries across the world, with some of them still in active use today.  From Africa, Yom Kippur, Northern Ireland and the Gulf War, there's a whole list of games/conflicts that will find a home for these!

Modern
Vehicles - https://pendraken.co.uk/modern/vehicles/
MDV71   FV601 Saladin     £2.95
MDV72   FV603 Saracen     £2.95


And the usual pics:

MDV71 - Saladin
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4875/MDV71.jpg)


MDV72 - Saracen
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4876/MDV72.jpg)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 01 November 2019, 11:45:03 PM
Cool sculpts
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Not Drowning, Waving on 02 November 2019, 12:08:44 AM
For a moment I thought there might finally be some Mameluke proxies available. Then I took my Napoleonic blinkers of and saw the real world. I have quickly put them back on again...
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: FierceKitty on 02 November 2019, 01:10:36 AM
Quote from: LetsPartyWithCossacks on 02 November 2019, 12:08:44 AM
For a moment I thought there might finally be some Mameluke proxies available. Then I took my Napoleonic blinkers off and saw the real world. I have quickly put them back on again...

Not crusades, alas.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Techno on 02 November 2019, 07:10:36 AM
Nice !!  :)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: fsn on 02 November 2019, 08:45:13 AM
Them's pretty!  =P~ =P~ =P~

If only there were a big, beautiful, hunk of armour that could go with them ... oh wait! There is!
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 02 November 2019, 12:19:51 PM
That makes my day!  :) :)

Order on its way today.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 02 November 2019, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: fsn on 02 November 2019, 08:45:13 AM
If only there were a big, beautiful, hunk of armour that could go with them ... oh wait! There is!

No there aint, there be an obsolete tank, cent something, WE WANT Chieftains 
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 03 November 2019, 01:39:48 AM
Nice!  :) Always thought the Saladin was how a heavy armoured car 'should' look!  8) The Saracen...maybe not  ;D ...but I remember convoys of the things passing through en-route to Otterburn Ranges. Oh lord...also remember TA arty convoys with towed 25pdrs!  :'(
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 03 November 2019, 09:47:26 AM
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 03 November 2019, 01:39:48 AM
Nice!  :) Always thought the Saladin was how a heavy armoured car 'should' look!  8) The Saracen...maybe not  ;D ...but I remember convoys of the things passing through en-route to Otterburn Ranges. Oh lord...also remember TA arty convoys with towed 25pdrs!  :'(

In terms of "heavy" AC, how effective was the 76mm gun?   Could it engage a Soviet T34 or T54 ?


The little Panhard packed a 90mm on a body not a lot larger than a ferret.

A version of the  76mm was retained in the Scorpion, yet on export both benefited  from retro fitting of a 90mm. 
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 November 2019, 10:38:53 AM
Well when Syria invaded Jordan, many years ago a Saladin took out 2-3 T54/5. Hesh rounds are very nasty things. By the early 90's it was not much good, so the Scorpions were refited with Fox turrets.

In period the gun was good enough. There are some oddities - for instance the FGR border police used Saladin's with no MG's.

WE also need Ferrets - Mk 4 and Mk 4 with Vigilant, a "Saldin" troop had 2 heavys, 1 or 2 standard ferrets, or 1 ferret with a pair of Vigilants on the turret, and 2 more stowed in place of one of the spare wheels.

IanS
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Techno on 03 November 2019, 12:11:57 PM
Was the Saracen around in the late 50's, early 60's ?

I vaguely remember having a Dinky Toy that resembled that one. (False memory syndrome ?)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 November 2019, 01:06:31 PM
Mid 50's, as the Malayan emergency needed APC's - there are 4 vehicles in the family - the two released, the rather inflamable Stalwart (used as a limber for the artillery !!) and the Salamnder fire engine for the RAF. Saladin was considerably delayed by priority being given to Saracen. Also there are lots and  lots variants of Saracen, raised roof command ones, open topped ones, and radar vehicles.

They lasted til the early 80's and were replaced by Saxons, mainly for Northern Ireland.

IanS
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 03 November 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 03 November 2019, 10:38:53 AM
Well when Syria invaded Jordan, many years ago a Saladin took out 2-3 T54/5. Hesh rounds are very nasty things. By the early 90's it was not much good, so the Scorpions were refited with Fox turrets.

In period the gun was good enough. There are some oddities - for instance the FGR border police used Saladin's with no MG's.

WE also need Ferrets - Mk 4 and Mk 4 with Vigilant, a "Saldin" troop had 2 heavys, 1 or 2 standard ferrets, or 1 ferret with a pair of Vigilants on the turret, and 2 more stowed in place of one of the spare wheels.

IanS

Thanks Ian.  Yes the HESH was effective in the days of conventional armour. 
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Leon on 03 November 2019, 11:04:15 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 02 November 2019, 01:02:26 PM
...WE WANT Chieftains  

Item 3 on Martin's schedule:

1. Saladin/Saracen - DONE!
2. Trucks -
US - M35
UK - Bedford RL
Russia - ZIL 131
3. MBT's -
UK - Chieftain
    - FV432
Russian - T-64
Germany - Leopard I
France - AMX-30

Quote from: ianrs54 on 03 November 2019, 10:38:53 AM
WE also need Ferrets - Mk 4 and Mk 4 with Vigilant...

No plans for further Ferrets at the moment, the Mk 1/2 in the catalogue will have to serve as a proxy for the timebeing!
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 04 November 2019, 08:27:35 AM
Saladins and Saracens ordered,  processed and paid.  Thank you Leon !
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Raider4 on 04 November 2019, 10:12:08 AM
Quote from: Leon on 03 November 2019, 11:04:15 PM
Item 3 on Martin's schedule:

1. Saladin/Saracen - DONE!
2. Trucks -
US - M35
UK - Bedford RL
Russia - ZIL 131
3. MBT's -
UK - Chieftain
    - FV432
Russian - T-64
Germany - Leopard I
France - AMX-30

Oh, my! (Goes all giddy and needs to sit down)

If you would just make variants of the Korean figures currently in bush hats with berets instead I think I'd explode with happiness :)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 04 November 2019, 10:16:24 AM
Which Leo 1, the 1A1 or 1A3/4
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 04 November 2019, 10:45:05 AM
Quote

If you would just make variants of the Korean figures currently in bush hats with berets instead I think I'd explode with happiness :)

When the budget is generated from sales, there are a few figures in that range, I would revisit.

Berets would have a wide proxy application, and the officers need SMGs instead of Mk4 rifles.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: sultanbev on 04 November 2019, 12:59:03 PM
"When the budget is generated from sales, there are a few figures in that range, I would revisit. "
I'd prefer you do the Chinese and North Korean anti-tank teams first that are missing from the range, and holding back sales perhaps. Not much point in a customer starting a new army if you can't get the basic company & battalion TOE weapons. I am sure they were put in the original list that was compiled when the range was started, but as a reminder:
Chinese PTRD41 team
Chinese 57mm Type 36 RCL team (M18 copy)
Chinese Type 51 3.5" Bazooka teams (from 1951, copy of US M20)
Some Chinese cavalry would be nice for the recce units too.

North Korean PTRD41 team
North Korean 12.7mm AAHMG team

South Korean 57mm M18 RCL team
South Korean 3.5" M20 bazooka team
South Korean 2.36" bazooka team

Also, their most common heavy weapon, the 60mm mortar, appears to be missing from both Chinese and North Korean armies. Although I guess people can request subsitutions on ordering 82mm mortars, using the WW2 French or South Korean 60mm mortar.
It is because of these omissions I never started making 1950s North Korean and Chinese armies.  :(
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Leon on 04 November 2019, 01:56:21 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 04 November 2019, 10:16:24 AM
Which Leo 1, the 1A1 or 1A3/4

If it's just the different turret then we'll be doing both.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 04 November 2019, 04:10:09 PM
There are 3 - the original dome A1 and A2, the rectangular one with spaced armour A3 and A4, and one which the uparmoured dome the 1A1.
Also if the Saracen turret is separate then you have done the ferret turret.

ianS
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Leon on 04 November 2019, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 04 November 2019, 04:10:09 PM
There are 3 - the original dome A1 and A2, the rectangular one with spaced armour A3 and A4, and one which the uparmoured dome the 1A1.
Also if the Saracen turret is separate then you have done the ferret turret.

It'll be at least the A1/A2 and A3/A4 turrets, but knowing Mart probably all 3!  I'll have a look at that Saracen turret as I'd not realised it was the same one from the Ferret.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 09 November 2019, 09:30:07 AM
Saladin and Saracen troops have arrived.  Thanks Leon!  :)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 November 2019, 11:17:33 AM
Quote from: Sunray on 04 November 2019, 10:45:05 AM
Berets would have a wide proxy application, and the officers need SMGs instead of Mk4 rifles.

No they dont, STENs and Strilongs were mostly discarded in front line infantry units for No 4 rifles or later SLR's as being both lacking in stopping power and a dead give away to snipers.

IanS
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 09 November 2019, 01:16:55 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 09 November 2019, 11:17:33 AM
No they dont, STENs and Strilongs were mostly discarded in front line infantry units for No 4 rifles or later SLR's as being both lacking in stopping power and a dead give away to snipers.

IanS

No Ian.  It depended on the deployment.  When we deployed first on Operation Banner, SMGs (Stirlings) were the universal issue.  They were withdrawn by 1976 due to the PIRA sniper factor and the accuracy issue in an "aid to civil power" scenario.  Back in BAOR the SMGs were again issued up until the early 1980s.
In the Battle of Goose Green, H Jones carried a Stirling SMG when he won his  VC.

I can give you loads of photos for NCOs, R/Os and Officers packing SMGs for policing actions in Cyprus, Aden, Malaya and Kenya.   Personally I preferred the SLR, as it kept the logistics simple.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 November 2019, 04:22:08 PM
But have seen No1 on the Charlie G carrying an SLR, and there is that film of the Radio OP following his officer around a field - he has full kit with an SLR, the officer in that case has a sterling. WO's and Field officers may have carried Sterling's, but very few platoon officers would have, and it goes back to WWII as well, read MacDonlad Fraser "Quartered Safe out Here".

It's not official but common practice.

IanS
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 09 November 2019, 05:00:27 PM
The answer as I said depended on (a) deployment, (b) a personal choice by those who had the rank/sway  to be allowed a choice, and (c) the "culture" of the unit.


In Dofar the ranges in the killing ground tended to be 200 meters +, so the flat shooting SRL was a universal choice.
In BAOR I have seen the Milan man portable (sic) missile team all packing SLRs.  They were Grenadier Guards.  :)  Their officers swanned around with SMGs.
It was not until the Falklands that Warminster School of Infantry began to appreciate the amount of ball needed when supressing a modern enemy. dug in with GPMGs.  
The heresy  prompted by Operation Banner was  to send a man on patrol with 20 operational rounds.  Yes, it made the SLR a light load, but it fed the myth that 80 was sufficient for a `1980s firefight  that might drag on for 12 hours.  

In the day of Gun Group and Rifle Group,  I would argue that there was an acceptance that the SMG gave light suppressive fire in CQB situations.    If your are fired  at by a puny 9mm up to 50 yards away, you will take cover.  That allows debuss and engagement.

It was thus in Northern Ireland until the Yellow Card changed the goal posts.

But the real reason - it was light and handy.  
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Orcs on 09 November 2019, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: sultanbev on 04 November 2019, 12:59:03 PM

South Korean 3.5" M20 bazooka team
South Korean 2.36" bazooka team


In view of the production costs involved is their really a need for both types of bazooka.  In 10mm the barrel diameter difference is less that 0.2mm , and the M20 had a slightly more flared muzzle?  Hard enough to see the difference at 6 inches with a magnifying glass, and I would say impossible at 3 feet.


Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Ben Waterhouse on 09 November 2019, 08:12:31 PM
I was waving a Small Metal Gun around both in the Int Corps and HAC 1978-85
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/54207547_1519407844860811_3771383956251869184_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeEb4Fe5eCuiEOqrxdQHDmrP_lbG-vMw0FGdbqK7rduQF-QoFAaYzPxYRiBuKKo1-0khPw_w22kaKI7K8mP9ZTEIsI6bXAzMvKVhd2koNPcT9g&_nc_oc=AQkLTSwt4tmQn0ItarHW5F88WYRK6g9JJZuCTpywiB5F_shOMQJbWmCScSdOzFixjY0&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=3b25eb24e6a26ecf3d5c0431e8ddaec4&oe=5E64D17C)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 09 November 2019, 11:30:40 PM
I think the point that officers could and did carry what Ben calls the Small Metal Gun is well made.  I accept Ian's qualifications, indeed Op Banner taught my generation to "blend".

However, for the likes of Techno (Phil), the challenge is to make officer figures a sniper's delight - ie distinctive in 10mm scale.

For that reason, the SMG, pistol in holster (still carried by officers in the early 1970s), map cases and binoculars is a legitimate and essential part of the sculpt.

The specific figure in question is KBR14.  He is carrying a No4  at High Port. It is a pose that would work better (in my opinion) with an SMG - in this case a late mark of Sten.   Did the  Stirling also make it to Korea in 1953?   I know the Patchett was in action in late WW2.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: mart678 on 11 November 2019, 01:23:28 PM
Glad you like them
As for the others on list
I aim to do all the visible variants for Chieftain,Leopard1 as some mk's only have internal upgrades and not visible external ones the plans are scaled the trucks are under way Tanks to follow !,,
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 11 November 2019, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: mart678 on 11 November 2019, 01:23:28 PM
Glad you like them
As for the others on list
I aim to do all the visible variants for Chieftain,Leopard1 as some mk's only have internal upgrades and not visible external ones the plans are scaled the trucks are under way Tanks to follow !,,

Thanks Mart - love your work!
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: mart678 on 11 November 2019, 03:28:22 PM
Thanks Sunday
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Techno on 11 November 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Who's Sunday ? ;)

(Predictive text strikes again.)

Cheers - Phil  :)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Matt J on 11 November 2019, 04:24:12 PM
Quick question for Mart/Leon.

Is the Saladin in same scale as the current M113 ie will the turret go on the M113 and not look out of place? My Vietnam Aussies need more fire power (as if Cents weren't enough  :D)

Cheers

Matt
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Leon on 11 November 2019, 04:49:18 PM
Quote from: Matt J on 11 November 2019, 04:24:12 PM
Quick question for Mart/Leon.

Is the Saladin in same scale as the current M113 ie will the turret go on the M113 and not look out of place? My Vietnam Aussies need more fire power (as if Cents weren't enough  :D)

I'd need to double check the real-life dimensions but I think our M113 is probably a bit smaller than 1:150th?  When we got the M59 and M75 done more recently, they were noticeably bigger than the M113's (more than they should be!)  Mart's always spot on with his scales so there's a chance that the old designer was working to 1:160th instead.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: mart678 on 11 November 2019, 07:03:09 PM
Cheers Phil or Phillis lol ;D I meant Sunray  :D
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Sunray on 11 November 2019, 10:11:43 PM
Quote from: Leon on 11 November 2019, 04:49:18 PM
I'd need to double check the real-life dimensions but I think our M113 is probably a bit smaller than 1:150th?  When we got the M59 and M75 done more recently, they were noticeably bigger than the M113's (more than they should be!)  Mart's always spot on with his scales so there's a chance that the old designer was working to 1:160th instead.

That's interesting.  The Pendraken M113 is a perfect fit with the Minifigs model.  Indeed I deploy at least one MAV102 (open ramp door and top hatch) with the Pendraken troop.  Then other Minifig models are smaller than Timecast and Pendraken, which suggests that despite the 10/12mm claim, they are closer to 1/160. (N Gauge).  The turret on the Scorpion is a good example.

Barrie (Timecast) told me their new range was spot on 1/150.  How does the Timecast M113 look alongside Pendraken?

This is where you really appreciate the research done by the Headless Horseman!  :)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Techno on 12 November 2019, 08:14:09 AM
Quote from: mart678 on 11 November 2019, 07:03:09 PM
Cheers Phil or Phillis lol ;D I meant Sunray  :D

;)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 19 November 2019, 01:03:57 AM
Quote from: Sunray on 11 November 2019, 10:11:43 PM
This is where you really appreciate the research done by the Headless Horseman!  :)

;D ;D ;D

Eh??? Wozn't me! I woz at the pictures!!!    :o ;)
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: FierceKitty on 19 November 2019, 01:07:00 AM
Quote from: Techno on 11 November 2019, 03:48:34 PM
Who's Sunday ? ;)

(Predictive text strikes again.)

Cheers - Phil  :)

Robinson Crusoe has been expanding his domestic staff.
Title: Re: Saladin and Saracen released!
Post by: Techno on 19 November 2019, 07:22:44 AM
 X_X X_X X_X

;D ;D ;D

Cheers - Phil