Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => General Discussion => Topic started by: MartinKnight1333 on 09 October 2019, 10:26:33 AM

Title: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 09 October 2019, 10:26:33 AM
is this something that might be in the offering as I woul dhave 14 immediately  :D
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Zippee on 09 October 2019, 01:24:38 PM
Why M3s?

Surely you'd want M5s
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Leon on 09 October 2019, 02:48:20 PM
Seated troops are looming very soon, for all of the major nations, along with drivers as well...
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 October 2019, 04:04:24 PM
Course Martin only nees 12 M5's, CHQ rode in M3 White Scout Cars. (Feeling pedantic).

IanS
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Sunray on 09 October 2019, 05:35:33 PM
Quote from: Leon on 09 October 2019, 02:48:20 PM
Seated troops are looming very soon, for all of the major nations, along with drivers as well...

If you base them in the vehicle with a small blob of Bluetack,  you can show the APC empty when they debus.  :)  Simple.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Dr Dave on 09 October 2019, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 09 October 2019, 04:04:24 PM
Course Martin only nees 12 M5's, CHQ rode in M3 White Scout Cars. (Feeling pedantic).

IanS

I'm politely asking Ian to make a bit of room in his sandpit as I join him and add: "But BHQ would be back in the M5, or more likely an M9."

Pedantry is a gift, a skill... a way of life.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 09 October 2019, 08:57:38 PM
I want M3 half tracks for motorised infantry not m5 light tanks lol ;D
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Ithoriel on 09 October 2019, 09:38:17 PM
M5 Half-tracks for Brits, M3 half-tracks for Yanks.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 10 October 2019, 06:58:41 AM
There is no refernece to M5 for half track in any book I have ?

I stick with M3 as the M5 was not British but a later M3 model in production only.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 10 October 2019, 09:07:59 AM
The M5 is a different model of 1/2 track, has a different engine and rounded corners, mostly supplied on lend lease, although a lot of the British ones were converted from M14's to troop carriers. That's why many British 1/2 tracks lack the pulpit of the "A" variant. A rough guide is M5 equates to an M3, M9 to M2 but with a full sized body, M14 to M13, M17 to M16. As an aside most of the Israeli 1/2 tracks came from British reserve stocks in the late 50's, so would be M5/M9. Many many years ago Airfix Mag published a photo of one being loaded in Liverpool.

IanS

ps - that's why I used M3 for all the 1/2 tracks in the tabletop books, and had someone write to point out that the Russians had only 2 M3's
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Ithoriel on 10 October 2019, 11:49:59 AM
M5 half-track
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The M5 half-track (officially the Carrier, Personnel, Half-track, M5) was an American armored personnel carrier in use during World War II. It was developed in 1942 when existing manufacturers of the M2 half-track car, and M3 half-track could not keep up with production demand. International Harvester (IH) had capacity to produce a similar vehicle to the M3, but some differences from the M3 had to be accepted due to different production equipment. IH produced the M5 from December 1942 to October 1943.

Using the same chassis as their M5, IH could produce an equivalent to the M2, which was the M9 half-track. There were also variants of the M13 and M16 MGMCs based on the M5. The M13 and M16 were exported to the United Kingdom and to Soviet Union respectively. The M5 was supplied to Allied nations (the British Commonwealth, France, and the Soviet Union) under the Lend-Lease. After WWII, the M5 was leased to many NATO countries. The Israel Defense Forces used it in several wars and developed it into the M3 Mark A and the M3 Mark B.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fred. on 10 October 2019, 06:34:57 PM
The pertinent question being, are any of these differences visible on a 10mm model?

And if they are how would you convert an M3 to an M5?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 10 October 2019, 08:12:22 PM
Isn't the chassis longer?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 10 October 2019, 08:19:17 PM
10MM in this scale it really doesn't matter as the differneces are miniscule.

the M% was still a later variant of the M3, so it all depends on when and where its used at what time.

So endex all i want is the troops in lol :)
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Dr Dave on 10 October 2019, 09:24:09 PM
Quote from: MartinKnight1333 on 10 October 2019, 08:19:17 PM
10MM in this scale it really doesn't matter as the differneces are miniscule.

the M% was still a later variant of the M3, so it all depends on when and where its used at what time.

So endex all i want is the troops in lol :)

I fear that the differences are quite apparent. The most obvious is the M5 and later types have very different front mudguards to the US M3.

The issue goes beyond WW2. The Israelis refer to ALL of their 1/2 tracks as M3, even when they're clearly not.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fred. on 10 October 2019, 09:35:24 PM
Done a bit of research (well reading up on wikipedia, and looking at a few photos)

Quote from: mad lemmey on 10 October 2019, 08:12:22 PM
Isn't the chassis longer?
Yes but only 13cm. So not enough to care about at this scale.

The main difference seems to be the back corners are curved on the M5, but square on the M3. I couple of quick passes with a file would sort this if you want - although on many photos the back corners are obscured by racks and other stuff.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Dr Dave on 10 October 2019, 10:07:03 PM
Quote from: fred. on 10 October 2019, 09:35:24 PM
Done a bit of research (well reading up on wikipedia, and looking at a few photos)
Yes but only 13cm. So not enough to care about at this scale.

The main difference seems to be the back corners are curved on the M5, but square on the M3. I couple of quick passes with a file would sort this if you want - although on many photos the back corners are obscured by racks and other stuff.

But the front mudguards are a bit of a killer. They're the biggest difference. The odd thing is, at least to my eyes, the Pendraken "British M3" looks more like an M5 or later - at least the mudguards do?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: d_Guy on 10 October 2019, 10:30:43 PM
Reads thread, wants desperately to join in:
"My pre-Flodden Scots carry M3 pikes but switch to M5's for the march south in 1513".
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Ithoriel on 10 October 2019, 11:58:26 PM
While I understand that it's nice to have the exact model for a thing, I have had to use so many proxies over the piece that getting hung up over the minutiae of make and model aren't generally something I bother with.

One of the blokes who used to come here gaming had some hannomags, sprayed green and with an allied star on the bonnet, to move his US armoured infantry.  No one batted an eyelid.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fsn on 11 October 2019, 05:57:20 AM
Quote from: d_Guy on 10 October 2019, 10:30:43 PM
Reads thread, wants desperately to join in:
“My pre-Flodden Scots carry M3 pikes but switch to M5’s for the march south in 1513”.

Pub! My Flodden Scots have the much superior M4 and, I know this is a little out of period, Brens.

I generally don't get too bogged down in exact versions. Since my August 1944 NW Europe Brits nay fight anywhere after 1943 and in a number of theatres I am bound to be wrong at some point.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: pierre the shy on 11 October 2019, 07:55:02 AM
Quote from: d_Guy on 10 October 2019, 10:30:43 PM
Reads thread, wants desperately to join in:
"My pre-Flodden Scots carry M3 pikes but switch to M5's for the march south in 1513".

If you're marching south don't get onto the M25.....you'll end up going in circles....probably rather slowly.

Plenty of proxies in some of the WW2 games I've played in over the years, though they have been mainly 6mm so they are not quite so obvious.   
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 11 October 2019, 09:37:41 AM
The M5 was made slightly longer for I think a very good reason.
American Squads are 10 men.
British three bricks of four making 12 men.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Westmarcher on 11 October 2019, 10:06:05 AM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 October 2019, 11:58:26 PM
While I understand that it's nice to have the exact model for a thing, I have had to use so many proxies over the piece that getting hung up over the minutiae of make and model aren't generally something I bother with.

One of the blokes who used to come here gaming had some hannomags, sprayed green and with an allied star on the bonnet, to move his US armoured infantry.  No one batted an eyelid.

... and now we know why.  :D
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Orcs on 11 October 2019, 12:15:05 PM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 October 2019, 11:58:26 PM
While I understand that it's nice to have the exact model for a thing, I have had to use so many proxies over the piece that getting hung up over the minutiae of make and model aren't generally something I bother with.

One of the blokes who used to come here gaming had some hannomags, sprayed green and with an allied star on the bonnet, to move his US armoured infantry.  No one batted an eyelid.

Well said.



Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 11 October 2019, 03:14:19 PM
Quote from: MartinKnight1333 on 11 October 2019, 09:37:41 AM
The M5 was made slightly longer for I think a very good reason.
American Squads are 10 men.
British three bricks of four making 12 men.

ER NOOOOOOO. You would lucky to get 8 men in a British infantry SECTION - which operationally split into a 5 and a 3, or if at the official strength of 10, 7 and 3(with the Bren). Motor Infantry were officially 8, and these would have had the 1/2 tracks.

US armoured infantry were 12, but that included the driver and gunner, who would stay with the vehicle, giving 10 dismounts.

Also the vehicles were issued with a bazooka, M1919 30 cal, and Thompson SMG....the British removed those.

IanS
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 12 October 2019, 08:37:28 AM
I would guess also that the size was because the demand by the British to carry 12 men ie three bricks as opposed to the American 10 man squads?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 12 October 2019, 08:55:56 AM
REda the above, NO BRITISH SECTION EVER HAD 12 MEN !!!!
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 12 October 2019, 01:22:10 PM
Yes they did, prove they didn't not all units were 10 men and no need to shout its rude !

The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen according to the roll in the local museum, but i agree majority units were understrength.

No two British units were the same ORBAT, as it was and is today what ever the unit could beg steal and borrow.

No unit operates 5-3, ideally two 4's with rifle and the Bren team of 2, plus the Lance Corporal with a sten, more often a rifle.

Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 12 October 2019, 04:26:41 PM
I suggest you find copies of British Army Handbook by Chamberlin and Eliis and the same title by George Forty, both taken from War Office publications, and do a Google search on the British Army of WWII. You will then find that the only 12 Section would be in a Carrier Platoon, with 3 carriers each with 4 crew, of whom 3 dismounted. The standard Rifle Platoon, both lorried and foot troops had 3 Sections of officially 10 men, whilst the Motor battalions had 8 man sections, and they would be an 8 man section as they were originally sized for 15cwt trucks.

The only 12 man sections could be in the Commandos, who most certainly did not have 1/2 tracks, and possibly Paras early on, plus the Glider Pilot rgt, again neither had 1/2 tracks, doubt a C47 could lift one !

So please stop inventing organisations, leg infantry NEVER were in 12's

I have been modest and not referred you to some of my publications about WWII either.

Also the only difference in body length for 1/2 Track models is between M2 and M3, since the M2 is supposedly a gun tractor, and IH built the M5 and M9 at the same length .

IanS X_X

Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: sultanbev on 12 October 2019, 06:30:59 PM
"The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen"
Was it then two surviving squads to the platoon, rather than three? Whilst I've come across the fact that some tank units landed overstrength on Normandy, I've never come across overstrength infantry units, especially after a few days fighting. Platoons were often reduced to 25 men or less, indeed some companies fought in Normandy with 50 effectives. How those 25 or so men were organised would have been up to the platoon commander at the time, so it's conceivable some platoons might have gone for two larger squads rather than 3 smaller ones, but I've not seen any evidence for that.
Even if they were 12 man squads (okay, sections), the Left Out of Battle system would mean they only went into action with 8-10 men anyway.

That's all beside the point, as the Warwickshires was an infantry battalion, not a Motor Battalion, and only the Motor Battalions used the halftracks, with, as Ian said, 8 man sections.

Mark
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 13 October 2019, 11:40:18 AM
Bye guys this is not a friendly site at all.

you dismiss fact as fiction to suit your views. you wont see me again.

Its doesnt matter the statement no unit had 12 men section is bunkum, dont bother replying i wont reply to close dminds.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 13 October 2019, 11:45:54 AM
Think you might have misunderstood people and theor debates.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
Quote from: fsn on 11 October 2019, 05:57:20 AM
Pub! My Flodden Scots have the much superior M4 and, I know this is a little out of period, Brens.

I still have hopes that you are including an oxen-towed V1?

Quote from: pierre the shy on 11 October 2019, 07:55:02 AM
If you're marching south don't get onto the M25.....you'll end up going in circles....probably rather slowly. 
There is a large round-about outside of Oxford in which an alternate version of myself has been stuck since the Autumn of '92.

M3 refers to the ~10 ft (3 meter) Scottish spears used in schiltons and then the abrupt change to M5's, the ~16 foot French pikes (in case it wasn't obvious). Weapon lengths are, of course, open to a vast amount of debate.

Hope Martian will reconsider, this forum is the most congenial I have encountered.

While we're at it I miss Leman as well, his great battle presentations and generally knowledgeable and pithy comments. We need a Rodney King moment.



Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Leon on 13 October 2019, 06:35:33 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 12 October 2019, 08:55:56 AM
REda the above, NO BRITISH SECTION EVER HAD 12 MEN !!!!

Can we stop shouting at people please Ian?! 

Quote from: MartinKnight1333 on 12 October 2019, 01:22:10 PM
The Warwickshires in 1944 had 12 men squads at Caen according to the roll in the local museum, but i agree majority units were understrength.

To get things back on track here, is there a discussion to be had about the information in this museum and why these strengths would be different to the standard structure?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fsn on 14 October 2019, 07:45:07 AM
Quote from: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
I still have hopes that you are including an oxen-towed V1?
Hells, yes! Must get the camera out. My Flodden will get the right result!

Quote from: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
M3 refers to the ~10 ft (3 meter) Scottish spears used in schiltons and then the abrupt change to M5's, the ~16 foot French pikes (in case it wasn't obvious). Weapon lengths are, of course, open to a vast amount of debate.
The M4 pike is the attenuated M3 ... sometimes erroneously called a spear.

Quote from: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
Hope Martian will reconsider, this forum is the most congenial I have encountered.
Agreed.

Quote from: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
We need a Rodney King moment.
Are you suggesting we beat someone up in a car park, whilst being covertly filmed?  :-\




Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fsn on 14 October 2019, 07:52:22 AM
Quote from: Leon on 13 October 2019, 06:35:33 PM
To get things back on track here, is there a discussion to be had about the information in this museum and why these strengths would be different to the standard structure?
I'd be very interested to find out more.

All the books I've read have 12 man US and 8 or 10 man UK sections (excluding carrier, commado etc). I think SultanBev may have it right, that it was a reorganisation of a platoon that had suffered casualties from 3 sections to 2. Possibly with the loss of NCOs making the restructure necessary.

Other suggestion could be that part of the HQ section was attached to a rifle section. This would make sense if the platoon was acting in close coperation with a troop of 3 Infantry tanks?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 14 October 2019, 01:09:06 PM
HI Guys on request I am not leaving.  ;)

I think I over reacted to being shouted at by a stranger,capitals, who if he was in front of me would be on his arse in two  :d

All I said was I saw one instance of the Waricks being a 12 man squad, it may have been a one off for patrols, as was 42 comdo in N.I in the troubles when I was with them, a three brick four man squad when going out. Yes as a matelot we did foot patrols no matter what, take your turn,

As to the M3 it did have modifications to the M5 yes,  but I know of no one that calls it the M5 half track. I will always call it an M3 and on discussion with several chaps we all agree we are not changing, force of servicemans habits.  8) ;D

I served on a type Rothesay or Type 12 frigate was in fact upgraded to trpe 14 but we all still call it a 12. My point is the military will always call it by its first name, I still called my Rifle 5.56mm L85 (SA80) an SA80 even though it was a modified Rifle L85A1, then when I left 5.56mm L119A1. but still called the SA mostly.

I hope you now see my reasoning, I know 10 man squads are the norm. but my question was not always?

Look at Arnhem the paras all took etc Piats in but we can not find out how many they ,shall I say, aquired over the issue.  Like when we got stopped my the MOD Police when trying to aquire a 30mm to bolt onto the back of the ship in 82, it was lying around in the dockyard officer, good job they had a sense of humour.

Same as tankers I know, well 2, dont call it a Challenger II its always from the tankers I know called a Challey or challey to.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Ithoriel on 14 October 2019, 02:09:55 PM
Glad to see you back Martin.

I think the point is that, if one is to be strictly accurate, the US used M3s while the Brits used the International Harvester produced M5.

I don't think what one calls it is the issue here.

The M5 is a slightly different beast in terms of length, body shape and front end.

The M5 is a smidge longer because existing IH production facilities were used rather than due to any requirement to carry a given number of troops.

All that said, I think we've already established that some of us, at least, wouldn't give a toss if you turned up with M113s providing we knew what they represented on the table.

As to section size, the Warwickshires took a pounding at Lebisey, losing the equivalent of a company, so non-standard organisations may have been required at that time until reinforcements were received. However, for gaming purposes I'd be chary of fielding such an organisation unless modelling a specific incident.

The forum is, at times, weird and wacky (see the intrusion of Flodden related posts below :) ) for me that is part of it's charm.

For the most part it is well informed, well intentioned and welcoming.

I hope you come to enjoy and appreciate it.

Mike
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: d_Guy on 14 October 2019, 03:07:19 PM
Quote from: fsn on 14 October 2019, 07:45:07 AM
Are you suggesting we beat someone up in a car park, whilst being covertly filmed?  :-

Life is full of ambiguity, fsn.  :P

Glad you reconsidered, Martin.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 14 October 2019, 03:52:28 PM
 ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Techno on 15 October 2019, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: d_Guy on 14 October 2019, 03:07:19 PM
Glad you reconsidered, Martin.

Same here !!

Cheers - Phil. :)
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fsn on 15 October 2019, 08:05:43 AM
Now, we all know that d_Guy is as infallable as the Pope, and also (if rumours are to be believed) like the Supreme Pontifex does his business in the woods. We also know that d_Guy has sources of information the CIA and Facebook drool over, so in considering this post, I must assume that d_Guy a) is aware of the reality of sentient extra-terrestrial life and b) has identified one of our number as such.

Quote from: d_Guy on 13 October 2019, 05:36:46 PM
Hope Martian will reconsider, this forum is the most congenial I have encountered.


BTW the "a" is well apart from the "i" and the "n" on a keyboard ... so this must be deliberate.

The truth is out there ...
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Techno on 15 October 2019, 02:19:05 PM
Quote from: fsn on 15 October 2019, 08:05:43 AM

BTW the "a" is well apart from the "i" and the "n" on a keyboard ... so this must be deliberate.

The truth is out there ...

Good spot, Nobby !!

Cheers - Fox. :D
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: d_Guy on 15 October 2019, 02:44:59 PM
Sorry, have just returned from the woulds. I continue to adjust to this planet's primitive technology and languages. I use two keyboards at once and there are occasional missteps (yes, I use my feet for more mundane tasks). The actual Martians left some time ago on a quest for ambergris in the outer reaches of your galaxy (if only they had known how close it actually was life on your planet would be substantially different I can tell you - or wait, I don't think I was suppose to tell you - no matter, my quarter cycle report has already been filed). Apologies to Martin for confusing him with your former neighbors.

The implied offer to act as your planet's "Supreme Pontifex" is what I've awaited for many cycles and I am thrilled to accept! The ring kissing ceremony will be held in the lounge at 2300 GMT.

Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: fsn on 15 October 2019, 10:09:24 PM
Called it!  ;)
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: sultanbev on 15 October 2019, 10:12:28 PM
"Other suggestion could be that part of the HQ section was attached to a rifle section."

That could make sense, as a platoon had 36 men in total, it being three ten man sections and a platoon HQ section of (usually) 7 men.

I found another reference to odd size platoons, in one of my books of all things  =). 49th Infantry Division in mid-July 1944, or at least some battalions within it, each platoon had:
1 seven man PHQ with 2" mortar as usual;
1 eighteen man rifle group with 2 PIATs
2 six-man SMG sections each with 2 Brens

I do recall that the 43rd Division in the Seine crossing grouped all 16 Bren guns it had in one company (yes, 16 instead of regulation 9) into one unit on a ridge line, with the riflemen acting as ammo porters.
In another case, the 51st Highland Division by August 1944 added a Scout Platoon to each company, with 4(four-six man) sections, 8 snipers' rifles, & 4 Vickers K or Bren LMG, but had disbanded the Carrier Platoon. Yet they still had Wasp flamethrowers.

As a side note the 5th Camerons of the 51st Highland Division still had 2pdrs in it's battalion anti-tank platoon in July 1944 (!)

So there are multiple variations. It would be interesting to see the data Martin quoted, but presumably it's not online?

I think Martin made a couple of classic mistakes, which I see quite often:
1) Mixing up Infantry Battalions with Motor Battalions - these are two completely different beasts with only the latter having the halftracks. I see a similar thing with US infantry battalions and Armoured Infantry Battalions - again, totally different units.
I think this comes from the fact that in both cases you can use your usual infantry figures for both formations, and for the Brits both had Universal Carriers, but their organisations are quite different. I've found wargaming Motor Battalions and Armoured Infantry Battalions difficult because they have very few infantry dismounts relative to their foot borne counterparts. The extra firepower in US AIB doesn't seem to make up for their lack of grunts on the ground.
2) Assuming one piece of TOE data is then consistent across an army - certainly not, every battalion and every division had variations in every army.

I too do call all British halftracks M3 regardless of whether they were M5, M3A1, M9, or defrocked M14s - so I'm with Martin on that one  :) In wargames terms they are all the same.

Also, 3 bricks - isn't the term brick for a fire-team a modern term? I've not seen that in WW2 texts. WW2 squads/sections didn't use the modern fire team methodology.

Mark



Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Raider4 on 16 October 2019, 09:40:29 PM
Would the British use their half-tracks for any other purpose than the motor battalions?

i.e. command or observer vehicles, artillery tractors or just general transport duties?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: sultanbev on 16 October 2019, 10:01:05 PM
Ah yes, some anti-tank regiments used M3 (sic) halftracks to tow 6pdrs, and 17pdrs in armoured divisions. There were Vickers MMG and 3" mortar carriers, and signals, repair, regimental HQ, Fitters, recovery, cargo and ambulance variants, but many of these were postwar, serving well into the 1960s.

Off the top of my head, the only roles I know used in WW2 was the anti-tank gun tractor; anti-tank battery, Troop and Regiment HQ vehicle; the Assult/Blitz Troop in some Armoured Recce Squadrons of Recce Regiments, and engineer Troop transport in some armoured divisional engiener squadrons, 6 per troop.

So you do have a variety of roles for them, but generally within the armoured divisions - no doubt other people will be able to cite others on further research.

Mark

Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 16 October 2019, 10:07:30 PM
NO mistake I know what Motorised Infantry are and a standard infantry unit, thank you.

LOL  ;D

And also I never said there was a standard, I actually said it was most likely a Colonel would allow his men to scrounge what ever they could.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 17 October 2019, 08:04:15 AM
RAF liaison officers had one as well.

IanS
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 17 October 2019, 12:52:31 PM
Ianr was that vehicle modified for the radios ?
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 October 2019, 08:55:21 AM
Yes due to size of radios you could only get 3-4 men into it. Bear in mind that it would not be right in the front line. The team also had a soft skin - may be a 15cwt ( the British designation for a 1/2 track is Truck Armoured Half-tracked 15cwt) but could also be a 30 cwt.

IanS
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 18 October 2019, 10:26:26 AM
ianr you should read Eric Sykes memoires.]

he was R.A.F could do morse fast and well, his book is awesoem for the other details, he was with Army HQ the whole war.
Title: Re: WW2 M3 half tracks with British seated troops with side backpack and rolls etc.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 October 2019, 11:45:57 AM
But air-ground radios were VHF, and voice. Bear in mind that the army had one set of frequencies, and the aircraft another. Whilst the air observers had one frequency Air liason officers had to operate on two. Retuning one set was not practical - a post war larkspur series could take up to 5 minutes to retune, not good for a fast moving situation.

Ian S