Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Non-Pendraken Stuff => Topic started by: GrumpyOldMan on 02 August 2019, 11:52:54 PM



Title: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 02 August 2019, 11:52:54 PM
Hello

I seem to be lurking here and talking about non-Pendraken products, I hope I don't suffer. =)

Looking for an armoured elephant for a project, seen the MM Seleucid one and not really impressed. Also the Irregular Arab (Ghaznavid type) is not hitting the sweet spot. Can't seem to find a picture of their Armoured Mogul elephant, am I right in assuming that it's the same base elephant as the Arab one? Any other ideas on what's available?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Terry37 on 03 August 2019, 03:19:50 AM
Not sure what scale you're looking for, but Essex offers a 15 MM armored Mogul elephant in 3 different versions based on the riders.

https://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/15mm-renaissance-moghul-indians?page=2

Terry


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 03 August 2019, 03:24:21 AM
My Seleucids have six MM jumboes, which I'm very happy with, though I didn't use their crews.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Noktu on 03 August 2019, 05:47:52 AM
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/34146

http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/10mmRanges/10mmCarthage.htm


https://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MPW-108


Here's a few!


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 04 August 2019, 01:58:41 AM
Hello

Thanks for the replies, looking for something like:-
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3d/31/5d/3d315d484019a137d6f901e881ecc6d2--derelict-places-leeds.jpg)(http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook/Renaissance/GushBook/19_Elephant_Armour.jpg)

I was looking at the Irregular Armoured Mogul Elephant (scan of old catalogue picture of Arab elephant attached) and was wondering if their Mogul elephant was the same as this but with a howdah.

Thanks again for the suggestions but looking for an armoured elephant. Also hanging out for the old TB Line ones but I'm assuming they are so far down the queue that I'll forget all about them before they're released  ??? ???

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: mad lemmey on 04 August 2019, 10:30:02 AM
There's one in NantÚs
https://i.imgur.com/LiRuEbr.jpg


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 05 August 2019, 12:14:12 AM
There's one in NantÚs
https://i.imgur.com/LiRuEbr.jpg

Good thought but too hard to fit on a 40x40 base ;D ;D

Incidentally have had a reply from Ian Kay which said the Mogul elephant IS based on the Arab elephant


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Big Insect on 05 August 2019, 11:36:05 AM
When you say you are looking for a Mongol armoured elephant - for which 'army' as I think they will differ significantly depending upon which Mongol kingdom you are talking about.

Somewhere (I will need to do a web-trawl) I have seen a painting/book illustration of a middle-eastern Il-khanate Mongol elephant - but it wasn't armoured. It had a howdah with about 20 crewmen all jammed in it, but looked very much like an arabic version of a standard Indian elephant.

Yuan Mongol elephants were imported from Burma and Vietnam (often as official tribute or gifts) but the only ones I have ever seen illustrations of are unarmoured and appear to have been used ceremonially rather than in battle.

Ghaznavid armoured elephants appear not to have howdahs but 2 crew sitting astride the back &one on the neck. Essex do a good 15mm version. Irregular do the best 28mm version, but I'd replace the 2 crew on the back of the Irregular elephant by the Il-khanate elephant crew that Essex do (& will sell you separately). NB: the Irregular 28mm elephant is a much better scale than the Essex one and considerably cheaper!

I think that you often see modern illustrations of Moghul Indian armoured elephants with howahs, but I have never seen a contemporary illustration with a fighting howdah - but have seen a C17th Moghul illustration of an armoured elephant with a seating platform on its back - a cut down mini-howdah, on which the crewman (singluar) sat crosslegged in.

Many wargames army lists have armoured Moghul elephants with firearm armed crews in howdahs as a requirement ... but I think this is another one of those wargames myths. A bit like Khmer Maiden Guard and light chariots. In later Burmese, Thai and Indian armies the elephants were often accompanied by an Elephant Guard (one for each leg of the beast) and they were armed (very often) with hand-guns or muskets.

Cheers
Mark

Note sure that is much help.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Big Insect on 05 August 2019, 11:50:12 AM
Thinking about it ... the very best armoured 15mm elephant with a howdah I saw was produced by a French manufacturer - Alain Touller (who sadly died in 2015).
His Timurid range was stunning - I just wish I'd had the foresight to buy an army - also his medieval Koreans (the Cataphracts were spot on historically - right down to the elaborate feather streamers on the horses rumps) But sadly they are now out of production. I was interested in buying the masters and molds - but my advances went unanswered.

The Touller Timurid Elephant was fantastic and based on Timurid illustrations - it looked a lot like Moghul soft elephant armour but did have a howdah & crew.
Somebody has also said to me that Khurasan miniatures do an armoured moghul elephant with a howdah that is quite good. But as they can only be ordered from the USA import costs to the UK are a tad expensive.



Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Ithoriel on 05 August 2019, 07:46:00 PM
You may already be aware but Khurasan have this Timurid elephant

(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/timurid-elephant.jpg)

and these Indian ones

(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/km1111.jpg)(http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/km1109.jpg)


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: mad lemmey on 08 August 2019, 04:36:19 PM
They've just announced that on faceache too


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 21 August 2019, 11:17:05 PM
Hello

In my relentless and undaunted search for a 10mm armoured elephant, (I like to think of myself as strong-willed rather than mulishly stubborn  :D ), I've come across a 10mm manufacturer that I wasn't aware of, Fogg of War that were apparently sold by Reiver. Below is a picture of a green for an elephant. Anybody know about this manufacturer or these figures?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Qe-K7hyDPBwDbEYxiXG9YIlpjsl7SK4NpOo9R8DnWuFP-R9l5lu7ir11QaAPY5V1no-Vd4fQNkNLuO7oYber9UyhVy5ASlLQ90F1cwWEVfhOOBHtfxC3gerVYKWHvCyNZyHaRr6cCM_MT-j3p_hhBOVjjNO5WTW4k2UwtB_X15ZHNucfnRxRzW27BLLNgG0rOZzUC-5uhgNiHWUq-VYdAz_Ut0VvBeWWjItUzsq0Bz6e56qePAw1hvnQlFlytArV7F1A9qvj1kfMjUoXYPTXJFsA_oaRiHFZKMrGD3Fmd5rSpZi_MFTp26v2E3XgCbF6y-dJz1HOlZY7s2FpfnnC5qahaPZ2sfYj_uohpE5b9KxKqecdYgqd34vkRMrbUm3nBYTmnasTPqNAVuv1DASF59mebU9nFvyK4Z6yJ9fTrzUkBrNsYemP_tDwlgsxMOToqHlORlPmQwpDXfwLYLnFZT4XoMhXZ60jFxwpyzZFrTtf8dk5sCr1j4lKgY72rH8zLi1RrrZXjh06jmFmVbB9SD7zaK6bS--ByFhSM4f8T13EhbeLX76amdwtUGQ2_oI0m2TE_rce31lEnydnEC92u58ElV5DdS2otCzcg2jMHhCTX4spuPFTPXwiCzrmaBs1A_zISIeT-JjImbw4Ch-uFyKSbAoIfYRfXSR5pnyTBlefgqYC_H0sHc5Iq1L2LxwPJQh1cAZv3YixlYNzniUkMktJNA=w960-h720-no)

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Terry37 on 22 August 2019, 04:33:33 AM
Grumpy,

Could you not take an unarmored 100 MM elephant and with some cold forged thin metal sheeting add the armor. Doesn't sound all the hard as I see it. I would use some bases fomr old 28 or 30 MM figures to cold forge the armor form and then just glue it in place and fill in any seams.

Just a thought,

Terry


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Bren on 22 August 2019, 10:54:17 AM
Reiver stopped stocking them quite a while ago; I had been thinking about a Qin Chinese army but left it too late so I have been hoping to see them available again myself. Apparently Peter Foggin withdrew them from Reiver as he had plans to sell through his own website/webstore but it has yet to surface.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 22 August 2019, 12:03:32 PM
I hope Reiver 10mm Chinese do return to the market. Their chariots are super.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 23 August 2019, 12:11:53 AM
Reiver stopped stocking them quite a while ago; I had been thinking about a Qin Chinese army but left it too late so I have been hoping to see them available again myself. Apparently Peter Foggin withdrew them from Reiver as he had plans to sell through his own website/webstore but it has yet to surface.

Hello Bren

Jumping to another topic entirely - oh look a butterfly - did you see that Warmonger are getting 3d models done for printed masters (I think Clibinarius was also talking about trying this) for a Qin army. Be interesting to see how it works out.

https://www.10mm-wargaming.com/2019/08/crossbowmen-from-warmonger-miniatures.html (https://www.10mm-wargaming.com/2019/08/crossbowmen-from-warmonger-miniatures.html)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yy_e7UfKGao/XV0MVvOPx_I/AAAAAAAD7HM/sxUjzL_aQAss2XM40Ltfnvb5YYguE1zKwCKgBGAs/s1600/Crossbowmen%2B2.jpg)

Not sure about the left handed crossbowmen though  :D. But that's something that's easily fixed in 3d graphics.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 23 August 2019, 12:37:39 AM
Those are 10mm?!  :o


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Techno on 23 August 2019, 07:15:49 AM
I would imagine that those are the computer graphics for the models, rather than pictures of the actual models ? :-\

They look a little bit 'too clean' for metal figures at that size ?

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 23 August 2019, 10:36:23 AM
Must say, Mr Kwang-Min at bottom right seems to be loading a javelin into his crossbow.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Ithoriel on 23 August 2019, 11:22:15 AM
Must say, Mr Kwang-Min at bottom right seems to be loading a javelin into his crossbow.

All of the quivers seem to be holding three to four foot long "bolts" so perhaps they are double armed with crossbow and javelins? :-)

Nice figures none the less.

Museum Miniatures 15mm Sumerian range, also computer designed, have a similar crisp look.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Bren on 23 August 2019, 12:41:25 PM
Hello Bren

Jumping to another topic entirely - oh look a butterfly - did you see that Warmonger are getting 3d models done for printed masters (I think Clibinarius was also talking about trying this) for a Qin army. Be interesting to see how it works out ...


Hi Grumpster,

Yep, I've been keeping an eye on those on the wide, wide world of web. Some of the 3D renders appearing these days are superb; how much of the detail which can be reproduced in casting will be interesting.

Another elephant possibility could be the TB line ones should there be any demand to make them available in the future (where they in the Carthage line?), although I don't recall how well armoured they were.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 23 August 2019, 12:58:27 PM


Another elephant possibility could be the TB line ones should there be any demand to make them available in the future (where they in the Carthage line?), although I don't recall how well armoured they were.

Species?


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Bren on 23 August 2019, 04:40:31 PM
African, by the look of it. I searched for images and found an original pic on TMP.


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 23 August 2019, 11:10:48 PM
Species?

Large African forest.

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1504/8570/products/DSCF4364_1024x1024.JPG?v=1483539423)

Waiting to use them for fantasy types  :D


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 23 August 2019, 11:20:30 PM
Must say, Mr Kwang-Min at bottom right seems to be loading a javelin into his crossbow.

It must be remembered that these 3d renders are being shown here at roughly 400% actual size. If you drop the size of the image down things appear more 'wargame normal' and castable:-

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yy_e7UfKGao/XV0MVvOPx_I/AAAAAAAD7HM/sxUjzL_aQAss2XM40Ltfnvb5YYguE1zKwCKgBGAs/s1600/Crossbowmen%2B2.jpg)

(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/280/ER15.jpg)


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Techno on 24 August 2019, 07:56:01 AM
Agreed, Vic. :)

My own view is that they're trying to put too much super-fine detail in the models, which will lost, or, in practical terms, become invisible when it comes to painting them.

Just my two pees worth.

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 24 August 2019, 10:12:37 PM
Agreed, Vic. :)

My own view is that they're trying to put too much super-fine detail in the models, which will lost, or, in practical terms, become invisible when it comes to painting them.

Just my two pees worth.

Cheers - Phil


Hello Phil

I've got to agree with your agreement  :D.

Yes, you've got to limit what you try to put into a figure that will be eliminated by the mould making/casting. Having super fine lamellar armour in the 3d render is great but if the indentations disappear from the 3d printing, moulds, etc  then that has defeated the purpose. So yes you might end up with chainmail (here kitty, kitty) with fist sized links (necessary exaggeration here)  but you can print mould and cast it so it can be painted and recognisable. Still I'm going to play around with it to see what can be done. There's free software available, Sculptris and Meshmixer and I'll have a look.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan



Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 25 August 2019, 02:50:57 AM
Hissssssss....


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Techno on 25 August 2019, 09:01:41 AM
I'm glad you're agreeing with my agreement, Vic.  ;D  ;D

I agree. ;)

With the super fine detail.....even if 'something' was just visible in the impression in the rubber mould....By the time the 'releasing agent' (talcum powder, or equivalent) was slapped on the mould....that'd lose some of the detail....and by the time an undercoat was put on the model......Would there be anything left ?
Apparently the human eye can't see anything smaller than 40 microns.....And some of those 'dents' defining the 'scale armour'...........

Be interesting to see what you can achieve. :)

(Kitty.....stop scratching the furniture !!......And I nearly typed loose, instead of lose, again...Obviously got a 'blind spot' as far as those words are concerned. X_X)

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: FierceKitty on 25 August 2019, 10:56:14 AM
I'm not scratching the furniture, I'm scratching GOM (or does he count as furniture?).


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 25 August 2019, 09:24:24 PM
I'm not scratching the furniture, I'm scratching GOM (or does he count as furniture?).

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/47/9d/f0479d5d0ed1072a182ab8e9b078a8f1--david-attenborough-denial.jpg)

.....and if we're very careful, we can see here the elusive, migrating Davenport...... No, sorry it's only GOM doing his inimitable impression of furniture again.... 😄😄😄��


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 06 September 2019, 02:10:56 AM
I'm glad you're agreeing with my agreement, Vic.  ;D  ;D

I agree. ;)

With the super fine detail.....even if 'something' was just visible in the impression in the rubber mould....By the time the 'releasing agent' (talcum powder, or equivalent) was slapped on the mould....that'd lose some of the detail....and by the time an undercoat was put on the model......Would there be anything left ?
Apparently the human eye can't see anything smaller than 40 microns.....And some of those 'dents' defining the 'scale armour'...........

Be interesting to see what you can achieve. :)

(Kitty.....stop scratching the furniture !!......And I nearly typed loose, instead of lose, again...Obviously got a 'blind spot' as far as those words are concerned. X_X)

Hello

I've had a play around with various software/sites and there are a number of ways that you could come up with a 3d master. A good time waster important site is dektophero3d.com which lets you play around with various bits to come up with a figure and pose that could be 3d printed. I made up a prototype of a Malay/Indonesian in a short time, picture attached.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Techno on 06 September 2019, 08:15:21 AM
How tall is that one, Vic ?

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 06 September 2019, 08:45:20 AM
How tall is that one, Vic ?

Cheers - Phil

Hello Phil

The beauty of 3d I'd that you can scale it with a few clicks. So it can go from 54mm to 12mm in an instant. If you've got any 3d programs I can send you the downloaded figure to have a look. Just let me know what file format you want. Sculptris is a good free program.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: mad lemmey on 06 September 2019, 02:39:26 PM
You do know why he's called Techno... ;)


Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: Techno on 06 September 2019, 04:55:14 PM
Thank you, Will !:P

I think it'll be a long time (if ever) before I get to have a go at 3D printing, Vic.

I understand that once you've got 'the gubbins' (stop me if I'm getting too technical) set up....you can make whatever size you want....I was just wondering what size the chap pictured actually is ?

Cheers - Phil :)



Title: Re: Looking for an armoured elephant - NOT elefant!
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 07 September 2019, 01:37:59 AM
Thank you, Will !:P

I think it'll be a long time (if ever) before I get to have a go at 3D printing, Vic.

I understand that once you've got 'the gubbins' (stop me if I'm getting too technical) set up....you can make whatever size you want....I was just wondering what size the chap pictured actually is ?

Cheers - Phil :)

Hello

Ah I see now. No I haven't printed anything out yet, still playing with the sculpting/animation software. The picture is of a 3d model that I was playing with. When I come up with something I'm happy with, I'll get somebody commercial with whizz-bang expensive printers that can do fine detail to print and see what it comes out like. The sort of hobby printer I could afford wouldn't have the level of detail/smoothness required.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan