Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Releases, Requests and Photos! => New Figure Previews => Topic started by: Leon on 21 July 2019, 07:42:32 PM



Title: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 21 July 2019, 07:42:32 PM
Our upcoming Feudal Japanese revamp got a step closer this week when all of the sculpts arrived at Pendraken HQ!  We've added some extra poses to some of these types based on your feedback in the range list thread, so we hope you like them!

Feudal Japanese

Foot command - Officer / Nobori banner-man / conch shell blower / Ashigaru banner-man
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814136_9c3dca3662.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbBj)FeudJapFootComm (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbBj) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Ashigaru - Naginata x 2 / Longbow x 2 / Yari x 2 / Arquebus x 2
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814571_c91def11ca_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbJP)FeudJapAshigaru (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbJP) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Samurai - Longbow x 3 / Naginata x 3
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339958662_64e8b1309f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVz9)FeudJapSam1 (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVz9) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Samurai - Katana x 3 / Yari x 3
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339958482_0d06bb1b7c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVw3)FeudJapSam2 (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVw3) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Peasants - Longbow x 2 / Arquebus x 2 / Improvised weapons x 3
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814321_0d1c50c6a5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbEv)FeudJapPeas (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbEv) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Monks - Sohei x 3 / Ikko-Ikki x 4
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814441_a2a15c2156_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbGz)FeudJapMonks (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbGz) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Ninjas - x 3
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814101_74eb75e714.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbAH)FeudJapNinja (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbAH) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Mounted Samurai - Longbow x 2 / Naginata x 2 / Yari x 2
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814391_5c4fdf32ef_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbFH)FeudJapMtdSam (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbFH) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Generals - Mounted x 2 / seated / standing
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339958907_4c7c40db30.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVDn)FeudJapGens (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVDn) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Personalities - Takeda Shingen / Uesugi Kenshin / Tokugawa Ieyasu / Oda Nobunaga
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814281_bc57760f03.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbDP)FeudJapPers (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbDP) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Artillery - Crew x 4 / Emplaced gun
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339958977_6a420c312f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVEz)FeudJapArt (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCVEz) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Misc - Casualty x 2 / Civilians x 4
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48339814516_814de1c205_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbHS)FeudJapCasCiv (https://flic.kr/p/2gDCbHS) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr


All being well, we'll have these ready for release in late August / early September hopefully.  We'll also have the first of the Castle Arts buildings back in production then as well!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mmcv on 21 July 2019, 07:44:47 PM
 =D> :-bd

Looking forward to these, they're looking great!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: fsn on 21 July 2019, 07:48:24 PM
Get thee behind me!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: fred. on 21 July 2019, 07:58:41 PM
These are a bit nice!!!   8) 8)

Now, if I start saying it now, will it sink in by the time these are cast up. I don't need another army. I don't need another army.

Not sure its working... :'(


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: quasar42 on 21 July 2019, 08:00:39 PM
Oh wow! Fantastic. I will need to upgrade my army.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ben Waterhouse on 21 July 2019, 08:19:19 PM
Gosh!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mad lemmey on 21 July 2019, 08:30:25 PM
Fantastic!
Might as well finish my second Samurai army then!
Those are beautiful!  8)


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Steve J on 21 July 2019, 10:16:15 PM
Great, great work all round 8).


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: d_Guy on 22 July 2019, 03:34:14 AM
Flinderation!

Muskets and pikes - check
Polearms and swords - check
Bows - check
16th/17th century - check
Fight on an Island - check
Ever changing factions - check
Speak an incomprehensible language - check
Lots of colorful banners - check
Peasants in arms - check

Yup, checks all my boxes - nice work!  :-bd =D>


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: paulr on 22 July 2019, 04:01:22 AM
 :-bd =D> :-bd =D>


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Techno on 22 July 2019, 07:22:47 AM
Top stuff !

My compliments to the chef !!  :-bd
5 Michelin stars.

Those must have taken an absolute age !

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leman on 22 July 2019, 11:54:41 AM
Flippin’ ‘eck - they’re a bit tempting! L-) (nearest I could find to a head palm)

Haven’t even bought my first LOA figures yet.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Shedman on 22 July 2019, 12:01:01 PM
Excellent

Will the Ashigaru all come in one pack or spread across several packs as per the current range?

 


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: rct75001 on 22 July 2019, 12:38:01 PM
Flippin’ ‘eck - they’re a bit tempting! L-) (nearest I could find to a head palm)

Haven’t even bought my first LOA figures yet.

That is exactly what I was thinking ... and the WWI

Richard


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 22 July 2019, 01:55:43 PM
Beautiful figures and a complete range.
Excellent!!

Would it be tricky to add the back banners to the close fighting masters?
(I anticipate the answer is a very big YES!!)
They're a real pain to attach to figures during the cleaning and painting stage.
Especially for mass armies.



Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 22 July 2019, 02:23:35 PM
Will the Ashigaru all come in one pack or spread across several packs as per the current range?

They'll be split down so that there's 4 Ashigaru packs, and then the same for all of the other sculpts.

Would it be tricky to add the back banners to the close fighting masters?
(I anticipate the answer is a very big YES!!)

Unfortunately it is a big yes on that, the angles that they need to be attached make casting them very difficult and there's a good chance they'd get bent during the moulding process as well. 


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mad lemmey on 22 July 2019, 02:40:00 PM
Agreed


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 25 July 2019, 08:55:32 PM
I may want a few of those. Has the big drum been abandoned?

Oh, is the monk with the big club wearing a conical hat?


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Orcs on 25 July 2019, 11:17:53 PM
They are lovely Figures.  Fortunately for me I have no interest in a Samaurai/Japanese army. So therefore will not be tempted.

( I am having enough problems with Sunjester and his suggestions for Cruel Seas).



Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 26 July 2019, 12:00:45 AM
Oh, is the monk with the big club wearing a conical hat?

I believe he is, yep.

I may want a few of those. Has the big drum been abandoned?

Not abandoned, just not done in time for the photos.  It'll be getting done in a separate batch before we get these ready for release.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Noktu on 30 July 2019, 08:55:23 AM
These look excellent!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Dannyboy on 07 August 2019, 09:41:22 PM
Ok I'm in, any chance of another pack of armed peasants for a truly random marauding horde? Please, can we have a set of decals for mon and banners to accompany these, as they make or break the overall look of the army. But yes it's going to be fantastic.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Dannyboy on 07 August 2019, 10:50:25 PM
Two further questions guys if I may  :D

Can we have a couple of extra packs to the Sohei Monks, a pack of Arquebusier as they were major pioneers of this in their clashes with Oda Nabunaga, and any chance of a mobile shrine as a command stand piece for them.

Second question, will there be a set of rules to go with these guys for larger scale battles, or does anybody have suggestions or pointers in the right direction?

Cheers

J


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 08 August 2019, 02:30:00 AM
Ok I'm in, any chance of another pack of armed peasants for a truly random marauding horde?

We won't be adding any more sculpts at this point, but if the sales go well and enough people want them, we can look at some additions.

Please, can we have a set of decals for mon and banners to accompany these, as they make or break the overall look of the army. But yes it's going to be fantastic.

Yep, we've already got some plans in place so we'll have some decal sheets ready for release.  It's a third-party set that we'll be buying in, before the requests start!

Can we have a couple of extra packs to the Sohei Monks, a pack of Arquebusier as they were major pioneers of this in their clashes with Oda Nabunaga, and any chance of a mobile shrine as a command stand piece for them.

As with the other request, we'll need to see how popular the range is before we plan any additions to it.

Second question, will there be a set of rules to go with these guys for larger scale battles, or does anybody have suggestions or pointers in the right direction?

That'll be one for the other members to help with!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Dannyboy on 08 August 2019, 02:10:57 PM
Plenty to keep us going on with anyway...... ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Wkeyser on 09 December 2019, 10:09:00 AM
Any idea when these might be avalable?
Thanks


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 09 December 2019, 06:27:57 PM
Any idea when these might be avalable?
Thanks

I'm doing the Ancient Persians this week, to hopefully have ready for release before the end of the year.  Then it's straight on to the Japanese as our first release of 2020 I'd expect.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 20 January 2020, 04:44:58 PM
When these are ready, I do advise making the ashigaru available in single-pose packs. I am sure I'm not alone in liking the pikemen and the musketeers in large armies to be in single poses (while samurai, monks, and peasants should max out on variety).


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 20 January 2020, 11:13:42 PM
When these are ready, I do advise making the ashigaru available in single-pose packs. I am sure I'm not alone in liking the pikemen and the musketeers in large armies to be in single poses (while samurai, monks, and peasants should max out on variety).

I'm not sure that's something we'd be looking to do but I'll have a think.  It's tricky to gauge which pose would be more popular, so you can either do a 50/50 mould (2 poses) and hope that they sell in similar numbers, or you do a mould for each and end up with loads of spares every spin.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 21 January 2020, 01:36:55 AM
Run a poll, perhaps?


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Big Insect on 21 January 2020, 10:08:20 AM
Ashigaru with upright Yari and standing shooting with harquebus would be good ones for 1 pose packs (IMHO)

Mark


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 21 January 2020, 11:11:38 AM
All my existing pikemen have yari sloping forward; I prefer that pose myself.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Big Insect on 21 January 2020, 12:55:49 PM
Yes,equally good.

But as I usually cut, drill and replace all my spears/pikes/yari with wire/pins - I like easier to access and drill poses.

PS: The Mobile Shrine would be a great addition to the range.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Nick the Lemming on 21 January 2020, 01:13:13 PM
I'd like to see mounted sohei too. And even more poses, of course.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Big Insect on 23 January 2020, 11:09:31 PM
And a bunch of unarmoured or poorly armed Ronin ... very useful.

Plus a few more general civilians mostly male - especially some kneeling/kau tau'ing, with forehead to the ground in deference as the great Lord rides by or a bunch of belligerent monks strut past with a mobile shrine!


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Redstef on 31 January 2020, 03:44:30 PM
The Peter Pig rules 'Battles in the Age of War' are an excellent set of rules for small/medium actions ( not played large so will refrain from commenting )
They give a real feel for the period and have mixed units (thank the lord). The pre battle section gives nice flavour too


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Big Insect on 31 January 2020, 05:50:52 PM
The "mixed units" thing sounds interesting and curious ... do you mean mixed weapons or mixed social status levels?

I had always understood it that Ashigaru might be led by Samurai but they were not in mixed units?
I cannot see mixing Ronin in with Ashigaur or Samurai or even Warrior Monks.

Likewise I'd also always understood it that bows and harquebus armed troops (Ashigaru specifically) were not formed up together or in mixed units with Yari armed troops.

Depending upon the era, even Samurai were brigaded according to weapon type, especially later on.
Ronin on their own might be very mixed, but its debatable that they'd have enough bows or firearms to warrant significant missile capabilities.

Is there any justification around the mixed unit mechanism at all?

Cheers
Mark



Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ithoriel on 31 January 2020, 06:13:55 PM
There is a suggestion that most Samurai units (Sonae) consisted of a series of lines of troops. For example, Teppo-gumi (with a few Yumi-gumi to cover the front during reloading) then a line of Ashigaru with Yari or Naginata, followed by a line of Samurai with an Ashigaru backing them up or alternate blocks of foot and mounted samurai, Then the Daimyo who brought the sonae to the battle backed by flagbearers and flanked by more mounted samurai, finally the logistics arm of the Sonae.

For a more detailed explanation see: http://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/2018/03/sengoku-period-warfare-part-1-army-and.html

The later Sengoku Jidai battles would, I believe, see more homogeneous units as armies grew.

So for the early period mixed units may well be exactly what needs to be represented.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Redstef on 02 February 2020, 02:19:02 PM
each 'unit' represents one commanded by a lower level samurai consisting of the various lines. Yari Ashigaru units will have the attached missile support but said missiles will be part of the whole unit and not an independent unit to move around the table. The unit will also have a command base of samurai and possibly a bodyguard base for that samurai. Two or more of these blocks will form the Clan generals contingent with two or more Clan leaders forming the army of the Daimyo.

This article shows the historical version with pictures and descriptions better. Its a TMP thread as i can't find the original after reformatting from windows 7-10 :(

 http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=277195


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 02 February 2020, 02:27:46 PM
Do bear in mind that those woodblocks are centuries later than the Sengoku era. Imagine what the result would be if extra-terrestrials took DBA as an authentic tactical document....


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 05 February 2020, 05:14:23 PM
Shall we be able to buy these by the end of March? I'm planning to be in France for a while in April, and could have them delivered to my hosts in Paris....


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: fsn on 05 February 2020, 05:39:25 PM
Paris, April.

FK: "Any post, Host?"
Host: "Non. There is no post."
FK: "What's that behind your back? Looks like a yellow padded envelope."
Host: "It is nothing Japanese. Or anything to do with Middle Borough. Or even metal. How ridiculous you should say that."
FK: "OK then."
Host: "Are you planning a wargame today?"
FK: "Yes, how did you know?"
Host: "The maid has resigned."


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Leon on 05 February 2020, 05:44:35 PM
Shall we be able to buy these by the end of March? I'm planning to be in France for a while in April, and could have them delivered to my hosts in Paris....

Should be, I'll be starting the production moulds next week.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Scorpio_Rocks on 14 March 2020, 11:32:44 PM
Second question, will there be a set of rules to go with these guys for larger scale battles, or does anybody have suggestions or pointers in the right direction?

I must recommend 2d6's excellent Banzai Rules.

https://www.2d6wargaming.com/pages/banzai-age-of-the-country-at-war (https://www.2d6wargaming.com/pages/banzai-age-of-the-country-at-war)

These are custom written for 6mm large scale battles, are fast, furious and fun.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: hammurabi70 on 15 March 2020, 09:49:43 AM
I am currently faced with choosing rules for my 6mm Baccus troops.  I found the following reviews helpful.


https://meeples.wordpress.com/2017/03/16/review-banzai/


https://meeples.wordpress.com/2017/03/14/review-killer-katanas-ii/


https://meeples.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/review-battles-in-the-age-of-war/


My choice might have fallen on Peter Pig's RFCM Battles in the Age of War but I am toying with the DBAesque The Age of the Country at War, published by Barrie Lovell in 1993; however, it is difficult to find.

Another idea to look it is Tenkatoitsu, details can be followed here: https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com/2020/02/02/yamazaki-1582/

See:
https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/yamazaki-1582/
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/214296/tenkatoitsu

Additionally consider:
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/122913/samurai-battles
https://www.gmtgames.com/p-724-commands-colors-samurai-battles.aspx


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Glorfindel on 15 March 2020, 11:23:24 AM
In terms of army composition, this page might be helpful:

[urlhttps://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com/2020/01/17/the-changing-nature-of-sengoku-army-composition-in-the-16th-century/][/url]


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ithoriel on 15 March 2020, 04:19:51 PM
Just downloaded the Tenkatoitsu rules - looks like it might just be what I've been looking for for my 3mm samurai. Thanks, hammurabi70

The changing nature of sengoku army composition in the 16th century (https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com/2020/01/17/the-changing-nature-of-sengoku-army-composition-in-the-16th-century/) is also a useful read, Glorfindel


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: hammurabi70 on 15 March 2020, 05:07:48 PM
Just downloaded the Tenkatoitsu rules - looks like it might just be what I've been looking for for my 3mm samurai. Thanks, hammurabi70

As my project on this is on the back-burner, Korea 1950-53 having supplanted it and causing me to come to Pendraken for the figures, I shall be interested in how it develops and what you think of them.  My understanding is that they are more retinue than weapon based.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ithoriel on 15 March 2020, 06:40:44 PM
As my project on this is on the back-burner, Korea 1950-53 having supplanted it and causing me to come to Pendraken for the figures, I shall be interested in how it develops and what you think of them.  My understanding is that they are more retinue than weapon based.

These days my projects move at such a pace that they look at glaciers and wonder why they are such a hurry :)  So, you may get round to this before me!

Retinue based is what I'm after, it seems to me that early armies' units, at least, were all-arms affairs.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mmcv on 15 March 2020, 07:02:21 PM
The whole tenku fuba blog is a good read. As is http://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/2018/03/sengoku-period-warfare-part-1-army-and.html and associated articles.

Retinue based is definitely the thing needed, been pondering rules myself in preparation of doing a feudal Japanese project (likely not until the back half of this year or next) and been suspecting I may have to make my own or adapt an existing to suit needs. Or find different rules for different periods and battles.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Big Insect on 15 March 2020, 08:47:12 PM
The whole tenku fuba blog is a good read. As is http://gunbai-militaryhistory.blogspot.com/2018/03/sengoku-period-warfare-part-1-army-and.html and associated articles.

I agree that the link above is a good read.
However, to me it does indicate that troop types were quiet carefully segregated - they may all have been part of a retinue but the constituent parts were distinct and separate. The parts could easily interpenetrate each other and they operated as a whole, but mixed units of Yari and Teppo are not really how I see it. The missile units form up front initially with the yari armed ashigaru behind. As the battle moved towards close combat the yari/naginata armed ashigaru moved forward.

I think the idea that the yari and missile armed ashigaru formed up in combined units, a bit like pike & shot, is IMHO unsupported.
In fact there is a danger that using terminology like 'pike' to describe the yari is terribly misleading. Yes, a few warlords used extra long yari later on in the period, primarily in an anti-cavalry role but fundamentally a yari is a pole-arm / long spear with a long cutting edged blade on it. It was as much a slashing weapon as a stabbing weapon.  Apparently the yari is also occasionally erroneously described as being like an assegai - although personally i can see no similarity at all (especially as a typical Zulu or Stradiot Assegai was probably only about 3 feet long - a 1 foot blade and a 2 foot wooden shaft) and was as much a short range throwing weapon as a close combat stabbing weapon.

Wargames also go on about there being a Japanese cavalry lance, but again in reality this is just a yari - used both mounted and dismounted by mounted samurai.
To think of mounted samurai as 'cavalry' is also misleading - yes there were clans with a lot of mounted samurai but in many ways it's a bit like medieval knights, samurai often fought as well on horseback as they did on foot.

From a rules perspective it all really depends upon the scale you are looking to represent on the table top.
Personally I like to keep my 'units' separate - so a base all one type of troops where possible.



Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ithoriel on 15 March 2020, 09:23:18 PM
I see it more as bow and/or firearms ashigaru peppering the enemy to either weaken them for a charge or to push them into making a charge of their own. Once either is achieved they retire and the initial line of close combat ashigaru meet the enemy. If they need supported/ replaced/ reinforced the foot samurai with their ashigaru join the action. If things get down "to the triarii" so to speak mounted samurai can be deployed to stave off defeat or alternatively lead a pursuit. In extremis the lord and his bodyguard can join in.

I realise that's an idealised version  and in combat things would probably be a deal messier, but that's the feel I'm going for.

Later in the wars, as armies grow ever larger, individual units of troops more or less identically armed seem more likely.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mmcv on 15 March 2020, 11:25:41 PM
The scale of the battle is an important factor. If you're doing a smaller scale battle of sonae vs sonae then segregated units by weapon make sense as you're operating at that tactical level. If you're keen on the Priestlyesque style of games there's an adaption of Pike and Shotte that fits this:
http://www.warlordgames.com/downloads/pdf/Pike-and-Shotte-Samurai-Army.pdf

If you're wanting to run a much larger battle where you're dealing with the combined formations (te) and each unit represents a sonae in its own right, dealing with the variance of mixed arms in each unit becomes more important. I imagine many rules could be adapted to deal with this though, if you have a favoured "generic ruleset" you could flavour it up a bit. You could potentially do this with P&S but suspect it might be a bit bland if everything is mixed unit.

If we assume that each unit had a core of ashigaru yari and then on top of that some ratio of archers, guns.and samurai, you could easily adjust the combat factors to reflect that makeup. E.g stronger melee if more samurai, stronger ranged if more guns.

There's a similar discussion going on in the BBB group at the moment for if those rules works be suitable, I suggested using Aggressive rules for higher proportion of samurai and Skirmisher rules for higher proportion of guns. That's abstracting it out to a high level to allow large battles to play quickly. This would allow for proper usage of large scale tactical formations but you'd potentially lose a lot of period specific flavour.

I suspect with some tweaking FK&P could work here too as it already has rules for mixed units of different strengths, could even use the gallant gent rule to represent a strong samurai presence in a unit. Would potentially need to nerf the cavalry a bit as they don't seem to have been as prominent or effective on Japanese battlefields, operating more in support roles and for mobility than outright charges (though they did happen and some clans, the Takeda for instance, where famous for them).

One of the criticisms leveled towards some of the rule sets for the period seems to be that they try and simulate every nuance of the period warfare rather than capturing the flavour of it in a reasonably payable way. I haven't played any of them myself so this is purely based on reviews.

As Big Insect pointed out the difference between yari spears and yari "pikes" was likely reasonably negligible so generally wouldn't need to be distinguished in rules. I'm sure this is the same for many aspects of the warfare, so I suppose it's a question of where you fall in the scale between "perfect complex simulation" and "simple abstract representation" that decides which rules week work for you...



Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 April 2020, 05:13:11 PM
I'm always grimly amused by certain types of raving. Remember how WRG used to maintain that you had a shield or you didn't, and if you did, it was immaterial whether it was a 20-pound scutum or aspis, or a two-pound caetrum? Even idiots as hypnotised by the sound of their own gibberish as they were might have worked out that in such a case nobody would have gone to the expense of the bigger affair, or taken the endless trouble of schlepping it around. Now it seems a stabbing spear the size of a large javelin is the same as a two-hander as long as many contemporary European weapons, and the naga-yari was carried just to deter low-flying herons. Or that there's something in this hobby that is deadly to intelligence and to looking at the actual evidence.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: mmcv on 08 April 2020, 06:01:22 PM
I feel you're disregarding the very real risk that low flying herons present to a military formation....

The difference is negligible from the perspective of how they would be used in a rule set. They are a formation of long spearmen, but based on what I've seen, typically most troops would have similar length yari, generally increasing length throughout the period, but there wasn't a point where one side had significantly longer yari than the other in such a way that you'd need to distinguish them greatly. Not in the way you would say for a phalangite vs a hoplite formation.

A yari formation would be mostly one type of yari with perhaps a handful mixed in with a different length for different functions. No one is claiming that a short yari and a long yari are fundamentally the same, just that from a rule perspective at anything above skirmish level there's not a significant enough impact to justify a large difference in the rules for a formation of yari armed troops.

Unless you want a highly detailed simulation style of rules that tries to model every single nuance, but for most purposes that's too granular.

Also herons, they're vicious.


Title: Re: Feudal Japanese range previews!
Post by: Ithoriel on 08 April 2020, 06:01:51 PM
Surely the question is not "was there a difference" but "is the difference significant enough to model."

That's a line many of us will draw in very different places at the best of times. We may well draw it in different places depending on the size of action being modelled, the period involved and even the specific theatre.

The fact that someone draws the line in a different place than you would doesn't make them dumb, it just shows a different emphasis on the available factors.

Teppo-gumi, will you pleeease deal with that sodding heron!