That looks like a strange topic, but there's a specific reason why I ask. I've been printing some 3d minis, including lots of Churchill AVRE versions, and now I've printed a LCM-3, thinking that would be how they got on shore.
They don't fit...
Now, OK, it's entirely possible I've got the scales wrong, but it does look like the Churchill is too wide. Specifically the armoured air filters on each side. I believe they would be removed for rail transport, but as I've seen numerous pictures (and even printed a couple of minis) of Churchills with wading gear attached to those filters, I'd imagined they came onshore from landing craft same as Shermans, etc.
So, like the topic says, how did Churchil tanks get on to the beaches on D-Day?
Greetings
LCT or LST.
Regards
Edward
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 12 June 2019, 01:24:02 AM
LCT or LST.
Right, so, true enough, it needs something bigger. An LCT shouldn't be beyond 3d printing in 10mm scale though...
LCT looks like a good option:
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_a3a064f238474fe22ad55794ed0f7125_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=OanbDqMUUzfSvzwvW5FX4vCb9xjdvINEWu247mNFS9~IyE~sUSnhJtDy6PBzpf~dk~URiXFgX3F0KV0QrFixhMNLD2mPVUw~QSuGiBqdTE8xmOTX1ngTBpUhRzXMF8LXY-~0SnkPAtTlc2sCJ7QKqOAGRy1NKWsj~Opo6gBBBUMoVSRhnna-T4nTB~B-uqfvsTUuaCB9dr27uYN4UIZeSPb5Bmv6lC3-zEFtHp0MjJdPk9EeiqH-Fu9Aw4~lUfaB7mNkWorhSWCHqTWvEL8EVlvSWWxzBjbKoGT5ZxfoUedM1lNLx3ck-Fjwa6q9OZP293DVhJIPDvEXm0lV179NvQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
Wasn't the LCM-3 designed in the US to fit a Sherman? What did they use to land Churchill's at Dieppe?
Hmmm... even if someone modelled it, only the smallest of the LCTs, the Mk 5 & 6, would fit on my printer, and even then only diagonally...
Quote from: John Cook on 12 June 2019, 11:56:25 AM
Wasn't the LCM-3 designed in the US to fit a Sherman? What did they use to land Churchill's at Dieppe?
Wiki says LCTs.
"Dieppe at Dawn" (RW Thompson, 1956) gives losses at Dieppe as 5 x LCT(2)
"Dieppe August 19" (Eric Maguire, 1963) just talks of LCTs.
This link gives the Landing table for Sword Beach, there are tables for all the beaches
http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/sword/en_page.php?page=landing (http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/sword/en_page.php?page=landing)
"10 LCT(AVRE)" suggests that the Churchills were in LCT
So the answer is: Carefully!
I did try a quick google to see if there are any card models of LCTs that may be of use, rather than metal/resin/3D printed ones, but didn't turn anything up.
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 12 June 2019, 11:26:01 PM
I did try a quick google to see if there are any card models of LCTs that may be of use, rather than metal/resin/3D printed ones, but didn't turn anything up.
Yeah, it's a foot long in 10mm scale, it would be HUGE in larger, more common, scales.
Didn't take long to find one though... And it'll only (ONLY! HA!) take 8 1/2 hours to print, albeit at less detail than I usually print...
(https://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/snap018_zpsvvgvmtpu.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/snap018_zpsvvgvmtpu.jpg.html)
Looking at the more detailed landing tables for Juno Beach from here http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/juno/en_landings.php
It appears that all the 79th Armoured Div ARVE's were carried in LCT 5's with 4 vehicles per LCT:
Nan White and Nan Red
H Hour
Breaching Teams
LCT5's from 106 LCT Flotilla will land Breaching Teams at H Hour.
80 Assault Squadron, RE - T/Major Reginald Trery Wiltshire, RE
80th Assault Squadron was attached from the 5th Engineer Assault
Regiment, 1st Assault Brigade RE, 79th Armoured Division
"B" Squadron, 22nd Dragoons, was attached from the 30th
Armoured Brigade, 79th Armoured Division
26 Assault Squadron, RE and "B" Squadron, 22nd Dragoons, landed under the command of 8th
Canadian Infantry Brigade.
Nan White
Green Gap, 1 Troop - Lt John
Holland Saunders, RE
Serial 1408 is LCT5 2286 from 106 LCT Flotilla carrying:
• 1 x Sherman Crab (Cpl Cavill) with 5 crew - 1 Troop, 'B' Squadron, 22nd Dragoons
• 1 x AVRE 1D (Lt Saunders) with Log Carpet and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron,
RE
• 1 x AVRE 1C (L/Sgt Burnell) with Fascine and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron,
RE
• 1 x AVRE 1E (Sgt Smith - WIA 6 June) with SBG Bridge and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault
Squadron, RE
Serial 1409 is LCT5 2436, Lt Reginald Edwards, RNVR from 106 LCT Flotilla carrying:
• 1 x Sherman Crab (Sgt G. A. K. Crewe) with 5 crew - 1 Troop, 'B' Squadron 22nd
Dragoons
• 1 x AVRE 1B with 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron, RE
• 1 x AVRE 1F Petard (Lt Oxtoby) and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron, RE
• 1 x D7 Armoured Bulldozer (Spr Scott - KIA 6 June) with 2 crew - 1 Troop, 26 Assault
Squadron, RE
Good stuff there
Quote from: pierre the shy on 13 June 2019, 08:53:22 AM
It appears that all the 79th Armoured Div ARVE's were carried in LCT 5's with 4 vehicles per LCT:
I feel a diorama coming on...
Whoaaaaaa - hold on. The AVREs have 6 crew? How dat den? :-X
Quote from: Dr Dave on 13 June 2019, 05:34:32 PM
Whoaaaaaa - hold on. The AVREs have 6 crew? How dat den? :-X
From Wikipedia: "Crew was increased to 6 to accommodate a demolition NCO in addition to driver, commander, gunner, wireless operator, and co-driver/machine gunner."
The Churchill was chosen for it's roomy interior, and with all the regular gun ammo removed (and so, I'd have thought, the regular turret loader out of a job...), and a limited supply or Petard Mortar ammo (for all it's blast capability the round is quite compact), there was plenty of space for engineering tools, demolition charges, and, it seems, an extra seat...
EDIT: I guess from the list above the loader is now a full time wireless operator.
:o I did not know that - and I love the Churchill tank.
Quote from: Kiwidave on 12 June 2019, 02:20:38 AM
LCT looks like a good option:
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_a3a064f238474fe22ad55794ed0f7125_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=OanbDqMUUzfSvzwvW5FX4vCb9xjdvINEWu247mNFS9~IyE~sUSnhJtDy6PBzpf~dk~URiXFgX3F0KV0QrFixhMNLD2mPVUw~QSuGiBqdTE8xmOTX1ngTBpUhRzXMF8LXY-~0SnkPAtTlc2sCJ7QKqOAGRy1NKWsj~Opo6gBBBUMoVSRhnna-T4nTB~B-uqfvsTUuaCB9dr27uYN4UIZeSPb5Bmv6lC3-zEFtHp0MjJdPk9EeiqH-Fu9Aw4~lUfaB7mNkWorhSWCHqTWvEL8EVlvSWWxzBjbKoGT5ZxfoUedM1lNLx3ck-Fjwa6q9OZP293DVhJIPDvEXm0lV179NvQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
That picture has been annoying me... that's not an SBG, it doesn't have the winch framework on the rear deck. Looks more like the shackles for another fascine. Speaking of which, unless there's something weird about the depth perspective, that fascine is on the rear deck of the Churchill with the framework, despite it looking like the regular fascine support is under that framework... Bit of a weird trio.
Is it another fascine carrier?
And what happened to its main armament?
The spigot bomb isn't attached / loaded / in place. That's all.
Think the photo was of an exercise - hence the disarmed tanks.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/churchhill-avre-s-b-g-assault-bridghe-t317390.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/churchhill-avre-s-b-g-assault-bridghe-t317390.html)
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/1018029601.jpg)
Hmmm ... could be the SBG
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_87d1494e32cde6145e5581b81324dc37_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=G7G3mjIXwYQmPlkgWk63Peg4ejODuYk095wJr0NUFbLue8J1-gposbmnELr6ZLVeqLmdrhQ8GAc3BLz4govs4t9dbfH~OyVAuENHAYCSwl1S~5RnB4snpPuy1XQkYNpoiqOnnCRAY5A3DW4NNpDxPIu95rdgh7SbNfIodmpfM7gogcFyJK-WPoxtxP43j1~op0nffSDjYOdCQvSkctv98ZTPTf48l2jkM~pUXy2h2zPeKD79yCY04trynVHFlwQINvZe-OBjRZB4nDz4TD1TgP9sVMbiGpzWg6p44MFv5ns6~7FJkEYnDmmK1Up7Hwrdd36fG2fw5QyXy3OUHVssxA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_0290c0dd898c088cd04db58cf69a736f_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=L9tJM1O7dJPO3BvWztztoKftaYV74GaqPgWF-a0BH4KC9JcqUe7wD6CNw8XPDxkmCt0Rmr9R58gNj0euzW69yEImfUgF5X88nRPzpQpdEwDIJ4dXTKjSPP1pQCZJKD33-7nUhr5xaXwY4Tt-P~otwWRRBL67ZUHwxSSUAOg2Eq6BHg0qqdvPs~MsUr5zegNA34fRM4cQ3nVqOff7Ekh06w6w1e4hST1wDJVE6N~Y1LaOBMFiCYrWcc0N-QYHrHqCdX4Uu1xdrlBY8nKm1Pt9abeh4gjkFr0vJILRAtf8vlPqXqSSdmbFCZH6WHqcQlu9I~g4rymF1nzBn~9vugt9xw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/2060184_967ee4a3208f4a02ab3f48904c686147.jpeg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=WZGX~ZRdywEkM-qcs5MKxB~R4yS4avr4P0A-tdQWnU3ThiRtEfeh0zkXhQKAEs8gd9Ei5317M-RThZW-e2vwAEgh0FqxviEGDa~kSmum5W8NYfOakWLRxwT9Yznj582OuFhNd~mGrLgRXznGxvFWozztfkY4AKI-~-qzwP~niRQrwzVXn6EKDYWyl334MG04faaEVw7BuD8CXzukVQDsfwMXVGNgN~lC8Ggug-FZVejJlpZ3zx8J8n16DK6gP0vWhZ3jsM3UDS1zlWZ1tX7dnEVx~j7-FNMo0p1~8tQ~QmkmBcPdjek2~omo-1Bo7yEGwLzBfb4q-~-rXhBfO4ISEQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/180296.htm (http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/180296.htm) Suggests 2296 was a LCT(5).
Quote from: Dr Dave on 13 June 2019, 08:54:38 PM
The spigot bomb isn't attached / loaded / in place. That's all.
??
(https://www.normandywarguide.com/place-images/2nd-royal-ulster-rifles-churchill-avre/l/2nd-royal-ulster-rifles-churchill-avre.jpg)
Quote from: fsn on 13 June 2019, 08:55:08 PM
Hmmm ... could be the SBG
Now that is odd, how is that bridge lowered (and, yes, clearly that is indeed an SBG) other than by simply dropping it, which can't be a great method of placement? I can't see a winch at the back. Maybe a different arrangemant with a smaller winch or one behind the hull.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hoth.bizango/images/114629/4_TLC_England_feature.jpg)
To answer the Dieppe question, here's a photo of a couple of LST's used at Dieppe. 120' foot long. I'll be honest my LST recognition isn't that good ... but I'm sure one of you will identify the type.
"Three 39-ton tanks – code-named Ringer, Regiment and Rounder – sat at the front of the 120-feet-long landing craft. Alexander's two vehicles, a tracked carrier and a Jeep, sat near the back."
http://elinorflorence.com/blog/dieppe-medical-corps (http://elinorflorence.com/blog/dieppe-medical-corps)
They mention LCT8 in the previous link.
https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/17586.html (https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/17586.html)
Says LCT8 was a LCT(1).
https://www.rmoutlook.com/article/disaster-at-dieppe-the-saga-of-lct-8-20121108 (https://www.rmoutlook.com/article/disaster-at-dieppe-the-saga-of-lct-8-20121108)
Now I can get my Churchills to the beach... Still to do final cleanup & some fixes (so the SBG isn't fixed in place, it's propped up by a die).
The LCT is printed more crudely than normal, because
a) It took 11 hours as it is...
b) I don't really need one, I just wanted to do it...
Note that the bulldozer is wildly out of scale, but that's the smallest it would print without losing bits, especially tracks & the blade support struts.
(https://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/assaultforce_zpsshtteay2.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/assaultforce_zpsshtteay2.jpg.html)
Fab!
:-bd =D> :-bd