Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => 20th Century => Topic started by: Wulf on 12 June 2019, 12:42:54 AM



Title: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 12 June 2019, 12:42:54 AM
That looks like a strange topic, but there's a specific reason why I ask. I've been printing some 3d minis, including lots of Churchill AVRE versions, and now I've printed a LCM-3, thinking that would be how they got on shore.

They don't fit...

Now, OK, it's entirely possible I've got the scales wrong, but it does look like the Churchill is too wide. Specifically the armoured air filters on each side. I believe they would be removed for rail transport, but as I've seen numerous pictures (and even printed a couple of minis) of Churchills with wading gear attached to those filters, I'd imagined they came onshore from landing craft same as Shermans, etc.

So, like the topic says, how did Churchil tanks get on to the beaches on D-Day?


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: kustenjaeger on 12 June 2019, 01:24:02 AM
Greetings

LCT or LST.

Regards

Edward


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 12 June 2019, 02:01:25 AM
LCT or LST.
Right, so, true enough, it needs something bigger. An LCT shouldn't be beyond 3d printing in 10mm scale though...


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Kiwidave on 12 June 2019, 02:20:38 AM
LCT looks like a good option:
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_a3a064f238474fe22ad55794ed0f7125_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=OanbDqMUUzfSvzwvW5FX4vCb9xjdvINEWu247mNFS9~IyE~sUSnhJtDy6PBzpf~dk~URiXFgX3F0KV0QrFixhMNLD2mPVUw~QSuGiBqdTE8xmOTX1ngTBpUhRzXMF8LXY-~0SnkPAtTlc2sCJ7QKqOAGRy1NKWsj~Opo6gBBBUMoVSRhnna-T4nTB~B-uqfvsTUuaCB9dr27uYN4UIZeSPb5Bmv6lC3-zEFtHp0MjJdPk9EeiqH-Fu9Aw4~lUfaB7mNkWorhSWCHqTWvEL8EVlvSWWxzBjbKoGT5ZxfoUedM1lNLx3ck-Fjwa6q9OZP293DVhJIPDvEXm0lV179NvQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: John Cook on 12 June 2019, 11:56:25 AM
Wasn't the LCM-3 designed in the US to fit a Sherman?  What did they use to land Churchill's at Dieppe?


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 12 June 2019, 12:21:08 PM
Hmmm... even if someone modelled it, only the smallest of the LCTs, the Mk 5 & 6, would fit on my printer, and even then only diagonally...


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 12 June 2019, 01:21:50 PM
Wasn't the LCM-3 designed in the US to fit a Sherman?  What did they use to land Churchill's at Dieppe?
Wiki says LCTs.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 12 June 2019, 01:37:57 PM
"Dieppe at Dawn" (RW Thompson, 1956) gives losses at Dieppe as 5 x LCT(2)

"Dieppe August 19" (Eric Maguire, 1963) just talks of LCTs.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: paulr on 12 June 2019, 08:33:41 PM
This link gives the Landing table for Sword Beach, there are tables for all the beaches

http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/sword/en_page.php?page=landing (http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/sword/en_page.php?page=landing)

"10 LCT(AVRE)" suggests that the Churchills were in LCT


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: mad lemmey on 12 June 2019, 09:05:21 PM
So the answer is: Carefully!


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: sultanbev on 12 June 2019, 11:26:01 PM
I did try a quick google to see if there are any card models of LCTs that may be of use, rather than metal/resin/3D printed ones, but didn't turn anything up.

Mark


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 02:01:57 AM
I did try a quick google to see if there are any card models of LCTs that may be of use, rather than metal/resin/3D printed ones, but didn't turn anything up.
Yeah, it's a foot long in 10mm scale, it would be HUGE in larger, more common, scales.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 02:52:57 AM
Didn't take long to find one though... And it'll only (ONLY! HA!) take 8 1/2 hours to print, albeit at less detail than I usually print...
(https://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/snap018_zpsvvgvmtpu.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/snap018_zpsvvgvmtpu.jpg.html)


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: pierre the shy on 13 June 2019, 08:53:22 AM
Looking at the more detailed landing tables for Juno Beach from here http://www.6juin1944.com/assaut/juno/en_landings.php

It appears that all the 79th Armoured Div ARVE's were carried in LCT 5's with 4 vehicles per LCT: 

Nan White and Nan Red
H Hour
Breaching Teams
LCT5's from 106 LCT Flotilla will land Breaching Teams at H Hour.
80 Assault Squadron, RE - T/Major Reginald Trery Wiltshire, RE
80th Assault Squadron was attached from the 5th Engineer Assault
Regiment, 1st Assault Brigade RE, 79th Armoured Division
"B" Squadron, 22nd Dragoons, was attached from the 30th
Armoured Brigade, 79th Armoured Division
26 Assault Squadron, RE and "B" Squadron, 22nd Dragoons, landed under the command of 8th
Canadian Infantry Brigade.
Nan White
Green Gap, 1 Troop - Lt John
Holland Saunders, RE
Serial 1408 is LCT5 2286 from 106 LCT Flotilla carrying:
• 1 x Sherman Crab (Cpl Cavill) with 5 crew - 1 Troop, ‘B’ Squadron, 22nd Dragoons
• 1 x AVRE 1D (Lt Saunders) with Log Carpet and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron,
RE
• 1 x AVRE 1C (L/Sgt Burnell) with Fascine and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron,
RE
• 1 x AVRE 1E (Sgt Smith - WIA 6 June) with SBG Bridge and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault
Squadron, RE
Serial 1409 is LCT5 2436, Lt Reginald Edwards, RNVR from 106 LCT Flotilla carrying:
• 1 x Sherman Crab (Sgt G. A. K. Crewe) with 5 crew - 1 Troop, ‘B’ Squadron 22nd
Dragoons
• 1 x AVRE 1B with 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron, RE
• 1 x AVRE 1F Petard (Lt Oxtoby) and 6 crew - 1 Troop, 80 Assault Squadron, RE
• 1 x D7 Armoured Bulldozer (Spr Scott - KIA 6 June) with 2 crew - 1 Troop, 26 Assault
Squadron, RE


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: ianrs54 on 13 June 2019, 11:24:05 AM
Good stuff there


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 01:08:05 PM
It appears that all the 79th Armoured Div ARVE's were carried in LCT 5's with 4 vehicles per LCT: 
I feel a diorama coming on...


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Dr Dave on 13 June 2019, 05:34:32 PM
Whoaaaaaa - hold on. The AVREs have 6 crew? How dat den?  :-X


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Raider4 on 13 June 2019, 06:03:11 PM
Whoaaaaaa - hold on. The AVREs have 6 crew? How dat den?  :-X

From Wikipedia: "Crew was increased to 6 to accommodate a demolition NCO in addition to driver, commander, gunner, wireless operator, and co-driver/machine gunner."


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 07:59:58 PM
The Churchill was chosen for it's roomy interior, and with all the regular gun ammo removed (and so, I'd have thought, the regular turret loader out of a job...), and a limited supply or Petard Mortar ammo (for all it's blast capability the round is quite compact), there was plenty of space for engineering tools, demolition charges, and, it seems, an extra seat...  

EDIT: I guess from the list above the loader is now a full time wireless operator.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Dr Dave on 13 June 2019, 08:12:30 PM
 :o I did not know that - and I love the Churchill tank.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 08:21:29 PM
LCT looks like a good option:
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_a3a064f238474fe22ad55794ed0f7125_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=OanbDqMUUzfSvzwvW5FX4vCb9xjdvINEWu247mNFS9~IyE~sUSnhJtDy6PBzpf~dk~URiXFgX3F0KV0QrFixhMNLD2mPVUw~QSuGiBqdTE8xmOTX1ngTBpUhRzXMF8LXY-~0SnkPAtTlc2sCJ7QKqOAGRy1NKWsj~Opo6gBBBUMoVSRhnna-T4nTB~B-uqfvsTUuaCB9dr27uYN4UIZeSPb5Bmv6lC3-zEFtHp0MjJdPk9EeiqH-Fu9Aw4~lUfaB7mNkWorhSWCHqTWvEL8EVlvSWWxzBjbKoGT5ZxfoUedM1lNLx3ck-Fjwa6q9OZP293DVhJIPDvEXm0lV179NvQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
That picture has been annoying me... that's not an SBG, it doesn't have the winch framework on the rear deck. Looks more like the shackles for another fascine. Speaking of which, unless there's something weird about the depth perspective, that fascine is on the rear deck of the Churchill with the framework, despite it looking like the regular fascine support is under that framework... Bit of a weird trio.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 13 June 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Is it another fascine carrier?

And what happened to its main armament?


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Dr Dave on 13 June 2019, 08:54:38 PM
The spigot bomb isn’t attached / loaded / in place. That’s all.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 13 June 2019, 08:55:08 PM
Think the photo was of an exercise - hence the disarmed tanks.  
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/churchhill-avre-s-b-g-assault-bridghe-t317390.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/churchhill-avre-s-b-g-assault-bridghe-t317390.html)
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/1018029601.jpg)

Hmmm ... could be the SBG
(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_87d1494e32cde6145e5581b81324dc37_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=G7G3mjIXwYQmPlkgWk63Peg4ejODuYk095wJr0NUFbLue8J1-gposbmnELr6ZLVeqLmdrhQ8GAc3BLz4govs4t9dbfH~OyVAuENHAYCSwl1S~5RnB4snpPuy1XQkYNpoiqOnnCRAY5A3DW4NNpDxPIu95rdgh7SbNfIodmpfM7gogcFyJK-WPoxtxP43j1~op0nffSDjYOdCQvSkctv98ZTPTf48l2jkM~pUXy2h2zPeKD79yCY04trynVHFlwQINvZe-OBjRZB4nDz4TD1TgP9sVMbiGpzWg6p44MFv5ns6~7FJkEYnDmmK1Up7Hwrdd36fG2fw5QyXy3OUHVssxA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/1963583_0290c0dd898c088cd04db58cf69a736f_t.jpg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=L9tJM1O7dJPO3BvWztztoKftaYV74GaqPgWF-a0BH4KC9JcqUe7wD6CNw8XPDxkmCt0Rmr9R58gNj0euzW69yEImfUgF5X88nRPzpQpdEwDIJ4dXTKjSPP1pQCZJKD33-7nUhr5xaXwY4Tt-P~otwWRRBL67ZUHwxSSUAOg2Eq6BHg0qqdvPs~MsUr5zegNA34fRM4cQ3nVqOff7Ekh06w6w1e4hST1wDJVE6N~Y1LaOBMFiCYrWcc0N-QYHrHqCdX4Uu1xdrlBY8nKm1Pt9abeh4gjkFr0vJILRAtf8vlPqXqSSdmbFCZH6WHqcQlu9I~g4rymF1nzBn~9vugt9xw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)(https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45243/201811/2060184_967ee4a3208f4a02ab3f48904c686147.jpeg?Expires=1561166332&Signature=WZGX~ZRdywEkM-qcs5MKxB~R4yS4avr4P0A-tdQWnU3ThiRtEfeh0zkXhQKAEs8gd9Ei5317M-RThZW-e2vwAEgh0FqxviEGDa~kSmum5W8NYfOakWLRxwT9Yznj582OuFhNd~mGrLgRXznGxvFWozztfkY4AKI-~-qzwP~niRQrwzVXn6EKDYWyl334MG04faaEVw7BuD8CXzukVQDsfwMXVGNgN~lC8Ggug-FZVejJlpZ3zx8J8n16DK6gP0vWhZ3jsM3UDS1zlWZ1tX7dnEVx~j7-FNMo0p1~8tQ~QmkmBcPdjek2~omo-1Bo7yEGwLzBfb4q-~-rXhBfO4ISEQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA)
http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/180296.htm (http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/18/180296.htm) Suggests 2296 was a LCT(5).




Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 13 June 2019, 08:56:56 PM
The spigot bomb isn’t attached / loaded / in place. That’s all.

??
(https://www.normandywarguide.com/place-images/2nd-royal-ulster-rifles-churchill-avre/l/2nd-royal-ulster-rifles-churchill-avre.jpg)


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 13 June 2019, 09:01:11 PM
Hmmm ... could be the SBG
Now that is odd, how is that bridge lowered (and, yes, clearly that is indeed an SBG) other than by simply dropping it, which can't be a great method of placement? I can't see a winch at the back. Maybe a different arrangemant with a smaller winch or one behind the hull.


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 13 June 2019, 09:04:09 PM
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hoth.bizango/images/114629/4_TLC_England_feature.jpg)
To answer the Dieppe question, here's a photo of a couple of LST's used at Dieppe.  120' foot long. I'll be honest my LST recognition isn't that good ... but I'm sure one of you will identify the type.

"Three 39-ton tanks – code-named Ringer, Regiment and Rounder – sat at the front of the 120-feet-long landing craft. Alexander’s two vehicles, a tracked carrier and a Jeep, sat near the back."

http://elinorflorence.com/blog/dieppe-medical-corps (http://elinorflorence.com/blog/dieppe-medical-corps)


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: fsn on 13 June 2019, 09:11:30 PM
They mention LCT8 in the previous link.

https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/17586.html (https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/17586.html)
Says LCT8 was a LCT(1).

https://www.rmoutlook.com/article/disaster-at-dieppe-the-saga-of-lct-8-20121108 (https://www.rmoutlook.com/article/disaster-at-dieppe-the-saga-of-lct-8-20121108)




Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: Wulf on 14 June 2019, 07:23:05 PM
Now I can get my Churchills to the beach... Still to do final cleanup & some fixes (so the SBG isn't fixed in place, it's propped up by a die).

The LCT  is printed more crudely than normal, because
a) It took 11 hours as it is...
b) I don't really need one, I just wanted to do it...

Note that the bulldozer is wildly out of scale, but that's the smallest it would print without losing bits, especially tracks & the blade support struts.

(https://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/assaultforce_zpsshtteay2.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/assaultforce_zpsshtteay2.jpg.html)


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: mad lemmey on 14 June 2019, 11:33:06 PM
Fab!


Title: Re: D-Day - how did churchill tanks get onto the beaches?
Post by: paulr on 14 June 2019, 11:39:24 PM
 :-bd =D> :-bd