Hi All
In my practice run last night I advanced a 222 towards Russian infantry in a village.
I got to 8cms from them
In the next initiative phase I attempted to communicate with the Infantry Battalion HQ to improve his CV by +1
After going through the factors I calculated I needed a 6 for success (low profile troops in buildings?)
Is that correct?
And what if I had been able to advance to 5cm, I would have spotted the infantry as per normal visibility rules but for recce communication I still need a six?
Big risk for the Recce unit for only a 1 in 6 chance of success
Am I doing it correctly
Thanks
As I read it on page 30 in the second table it says you'll need a 6: "unit is in full cover = 6", and the modifiers are Distance to target is 0-20 cm = -1 and Target is infantry = +1, so they cancel out leaving it at a 6.
Hence, yes. You needed a 6 as I see it even if you get within 5 cm, but recce cannot move within 5 cm of an enemy unit (p29, third paragraph).
It is worth noting that a non-recce unit would have spotted them automatically within 10 cm (concealed troops on p15).
In BKCii you'd have needed a 2+ as soon as you got within 20 cm (a roll of 1 always fails). You could have tried at ranges up to 60 cm (needing a 6 for 50 - 60 cm). I know people couldn't get their heads around this since how can recce report on things that they cannot see? The simple truth is that they can't. But I rationalised this as them reporting: "no enemy in sight – but they could be in the buildings. There are no enemy troops located in the open outside the village". Information is information. Recce doesn't just report where the enemy is, they also report where the enemy is not!
So in your example if the recce unit was accompanied by a non-recce unit then the latter could have fired at them when within 10 cm – presumably whilst the recce unit was wondering what they were firing at?
Troops in buildings or hard cover 6, -1 within 0-20cm = 5, but as you say +1 low profile, so back to 6 and you had to be this close to get the -1, as any roll of greater than 6 cannot spot at any range, which seems a bit steep in my opinion.
Under the old V2 you would have needed 2+ :) Perhaps too easy?
Perhaps if added to the original concept of low profile +1, +1 Partial cover, +2 target is dug in or in hard cover then a roll of 5+ required, still hard, but better than 6
Yes - pretty much Jimbo
If the target is in hard cover you need a basic of a 6 to spot it
As you are 0-20cm from the target so that's a -1
As the target is Infantry it is Low Profile so that adds a +1
(NB: the Infantry, Infantry Support - Low Profile designation doesn't count if they are also Dug-in, as it has a duplicate effect) see Page 76 - Special characteristics - no combination of abilities can create a situation where a unit cannot be targeted (so Dug-in and Low-profile cancel each other out effectively).
Interesting idea about the 5cm visibility - you cannot get any closer of course (no units may voluntarily move within 5cm of an enemy unit) but the idea of another -1 (so effectively -2) for 5-10cm seems reasonable. Your Recce unit has snuck up pretty close!!!
It's always a difficult one this, as we have previously played a rule that unless Infantry or Infantry Support that are dug-in in a BUA actually do something (move or fire) they are all but invisible to an opponent.
I think in the example you give recce is relatively futile and dangerous. If it was a dug in AT gun they've have been an easy target.
The fact that any non recce within 20 cm of the enemy can auto spot and then fire means I'd have been inclined to take a non recce unit up and shoot. Preferably lots of them. In game terms it would be wiser to simply attack without the points wasted on a relatively useless recce unit. :P
In an attack defence game, if the enemy chooses solid defences and deploys in cover, any recce unit is relatively pointless.
Thanks for the replies
The 222 could get close as I figured as in July 41 Russians have no ATR there wasn't much risk unless the Russians assaulted out of the buildings
I'm not a rule writer , although I have read many sets as I'm sure we all can imagine, but I would guess to write enough clear rules to fully model what Recce does would be incredibly difficult.
They need special movement, firing, spotting, communication rules plus probably additional special rules and special abilities.
However as most of what BKIV does , and any other rule set for that matter, is quite an abstraction then it should be possible to come up with such an abstraction that makes RECCE useful/worth the points and deployed as per history and which can be rationalised along the lines Dave has explained above.
In the earlier version the RECCE would be able to improve the CV by +1 with distance to enemy being the only real factor, was harder to hit as a target and not subject to normal command rules.
What I always thought this was modelling was that the RECCE was in communication with the HQ explaining as much about where things weren't as where they were, which would allow units to move more freely as they approached the enemy etc.
So you don't have to necessarily SEE the enemy in the buildings ahead but you are confirming there may be some there , Ive seen some limited movement, there is nothing in the fields Ive just driven through etc.
However in the old rules I would sometimes keep the recce close to the HQ and so say at 40cms it gave a 50% chance of increasing the CV of HQ by 1 which also wasn't that historical!!
Quote from: Jimbo94 on 16 May 2019, 11:29:36 AM
However in the old rules I would sometimes keep the recce close to the HQ and so say at 40cms it gave a 50% chance of increasing the CV of HQ by 1 which also wasn't that historical!!
Even back in BKCii we always allowed recce to communicate with any HQ / command unit (as v4 does) not simply the nearest. The "nearest" option meant that they first did a quick poll to find out who was closest before getting onto the radio! ;D
One other thing about my game tonight is that the Russians have a BA10 recce
Now as the Russians have CV of 7 in most cases the ability to have that increased by +1 by RECCE (no chance they will get the +1 for RIGID DOCTRINE all doing the same action!) is quite useful , never mind the fact that the BA10 has the best ATG on the board!!
The Germans will be advancing in the open for some of the time and the BA10 will have a better chance of communicating than the 222 had (5 or 6 on infantry 4,5,6 armour?)
Can anyone rationalise the situation I outlined that Jimbo94 alluded to:
A recce unit within 10 cm of enemy infantry in a BUA needs to roll a 6 to spot the infantry and communicate with a command unit, i.e. it's very unlikely to accomplish this.
BUT
Any non-recce within 10 cm of the same enemy infantry in the BUA will automatically spot and can then fire at the same enemy.
Quote from: Dr Dave on 16 May 2019, 01:12:30 PM
Can anyone rationalise the situation I outlined that Jimbo94 alluded to:
A recce unit within 10 cm of enemy infantry in a BUA needs to roll a 6 to spot the infantry and communicate with a command unit, i.e. it's very unlikely to accomplish this.
BUT
Any non-recce within 10 cm of the same enemy infantry in the BUA will automatically spot and can then fire at the same enemy.
And if their HQ is within 20cm call down mortar fire for mortars who can't see the target directly, presumably by communicating with them
There is a difference between a Recce action and an ordinary unit action.
The ordinary unit is not adding a +1 to the command value of a Commander. That +1 on a CV is a significant advantage in game play terms.
Also LoS into or through a BAU (as it is High Area Terrain) is restricted to 5 cm for low profile troops - so a low profile non-Recce unit has to be literally on-top of the enemy to be able to spot them. This is increased to 10cm if both units have Average profiles or the unit in the BAU is Average profile. So, Infantry to Infantry is 5cm.
I think you are taking these mechanisms far to literally. The idea that just because a Recce unit is at 10cm from a target might mean they see the enemy but communicating back to their Command might be equally difficult - as stated previously - not all Recce has radios and even if they do they do not want to be heard talking into them that close to the enemy. Even if they do spot the enemy unit, there are a multitude of reasons why a communication might not make it back to the command structure or even if it does make it back, the commanders might have other priorities and so ignore an important signal. All that is reflected in the 6 required to achieve a spot.
There is a general Commander series rules 'concept' which is that nothing is 100% certain ... so just as only if an FAO/FAC rolls a command bonus (double 1) are they guaranteed an on target artillery/air strike ... it's part of the principles of the game mechanics.
Cheers
Mark
The old rules worked perfectly well as long as it was understood that recce units were markers indicating your information gathering effort (and its effect on your units' effectiveness) rather than some guys with binoculars trying to spot something you could see on the table anyway.
Now, having recce units that are actually worse at spotting the enemy than regular units is just a new way to spell "broken". ;)
In the example of the Mortars - if the unit 'acquiring' the enemy in the BUA is an Infantry unit and the target enemy is also Infantry unit, it must be within 5cm to do so.
Then the HQ must pass a successful command roll to order the mortars to shoot at the enemy infantry in the BUA.
Then the Mortars need a +6 to hit the unit as it is in the BUA.
All is not as easy as it first looks folks ;)
I disagree Risaldar
Recce are no worse at spotting enemy units than other unit - it's the whole concept of Recce that seems to be being misunderstood here.
The enemy AFV that can 'see' an enemy unit automatically at 10cm from the BUA it is in, is quite possibly taking a punt at the fact that it saw some movement or at least thought it did.
Recce needs to be much more sure of the information it is passing back.
I'd argue that at the real life equivalent of 10cm on a battlefield - I'd defy anybody spot infantry dug-in and not shooting back from within a town, village etc. Especially as the unist inside the BAU can also see the enemy approaching them.
The old Recce rules had flaws - for example it was far too easy to add a +1 to a Commander, any Commander, no matter how far away they were from the Recce or the target.
The idea that a Recce unit has a choice as to which commander it adds =1 to is highly unrealistic I'd suggest.
The new rules make it less easy and IMHO more realistic.
It comes down to
1 What are you trying to model
AND
2 The level of abstraction you are prepared to accept.
Going back to my original example
The 222 was 10cm in front of the infantry battalion and moved 20cms forward
It didn't see anything as it went along and was not shot at by anything.
It then failed to spot the infantry in the buildings
it could be said that the infantry, still awaiting orders to move towards the village will be able to do so slightly more freely because they will not be as worried about dug in troops being 5cm in front of them for the next couple of moves.
So the Recce has done its job whether it spots the infantry in the village or not.
I.e. the approach to the target appears clear although as yet the target itself could be defended or not
Hence a general roll to give a chance of +1 rather than one specifically about spotting specific units which are all but impossible to spot seems a fair level of abstraction to me.
And it being based on proximity to enemy encourages the recce to be put out in front of the main battle line as it was used historically
I agree its difficult to write rules that's why I've not been able to do it very well but have seemed to able to pick problems in other peoples efforts!!
Regards
WE did have local ruling that the modifiers only applied to the closest HQ/CO
IanS
Mark, trying to deal with each of the points you made:
Not all Recce has radios
- but the vast majority would do. If no radios then how do they communicate over vast distances compared to their move distance?
They do not want to be heard talking into them that close to the enemy
- But they're probably in a vehicle! Are there going to optional rules for engine noise and acoustic arrays?
All [those problems are] reflected in the 6 required to achieve a spot
- So it is very unlikely
If the unit 'acquiring' the enemy in the BUA is an Infantry unit and the target enemy is also Infantry unit, it must be within 5 cm to do so
- But you cannot move within 5 cm of an enemy unit
Recce are no worse at spotting enemy units than other unit
- Oh yes they are! Recce needs a 6 to spot. Any other unit spots automatically when within 20 cm and can then shoot. One is 17% chance to spot, the other is 100% chance. In the latter case it spots them so well it can fire at them.
It's the whole concept of Recce that seems to be being misunderstood here
- Very much agree with you here. You have interpreted recce as meaning a definitive sighting of an enemy unit. That is NOT the use of recce in the battlespace. As already pointed out recce is about providing information (both right and wrong) – it just has to be believed to be acted upon and provide a commander with a right or wrong picture of the battlespace. The commander has to trust it, not mark it for accuracy – how could he? Recce provides information on the enemy positions - where is IS, where he ISN'T, state of the ground etc... everything.
The enemy AFV that can 'see' an enemy unit automatically at 10 cm from the BUA it is in, is quite possibly taking a punt at the fact that it saw some movement or at least thought it did.
- But now it is such a vague punt that it then opens fire on it and can direct mortars on to it, in exactly the same way as if the unit in the BUA had opened fire? That's not a "punt".
Recce needs to be much more sure of the information it is passing back.
- No it doesn't! "Don't say anything in case were wrong!" Not true. I've never heard a recce officer suggest that - not ever. Never. Really NEVER. Recce provides information, and information is information.
I'd argue that at the real life equivalent of 10 cm on a battlefield - I'd defy anybody spot infantry dug-in and not shooting back from within a town
- Now this is weird – in BKC4 the infantry in the BUA can be shot at from within 10 cm.
The new rules make it less easy and IMHO more realistic – sorry but I strongly disagree.
Recce is about information, with the new system the rules assume that the HQ is in a position the judge the recce information – it never is – it cannot be. For right or wrong (and it doesn't matter which) it just has to be trusted. Recce has become next to useless. As Jimbo94's scenario pointed out. It's better to spend the points on a shooty unit and not bother with recce at all. In an attack defence game instead of a recce kubelwagen it's better to have two more Heer infantry platoons. They are tougher, probably faster, and can shoot at dug-in Ruskies when the recce probably can't even see them. That has to be less realistic surely?
;)
It does seem hard, but RECCE can do more in terms of "spotting or reconnitre" seems relatively easy to expose hdden forces and or minefields. LOS to the terrain piece which for the Germans is a 25cm circle and it is calculated as per the v2 system of distance up to 60cm (1 always a fail) This is very useful, i accept that the +1 is more difficult, but to be fair, I think it was too easy in v2.
Quote from: Cross698 on 16 May 2019, 04:24:23 PM
It does seem hard, but RECCE can do more in terms of "spotting or reconnitre" seems relatively easy to expose hdden forces and or minefields. LOS to the terrain piece which for the Germans is a 25cm circle and it is calculated as per the v2 system of distance up to 60cm (1 always a fail) This is very useful, i accept that the +1 is more difficult, but to be fair, I think it was too easy in v2.
It certainly was easier - to use the rule and get the +1.
Whether it was toooo easy or not is harder to tell. It certainly is much harder now because recce
needs to spot an enemy. Often this will be very hard. But again I come back to the issue of non-recce being able to shoot at units the recce cannot see? This is described as an "abstraction", but it's more of a major discrepancy.
In My Game last night in 7 turns the 222 and the BA10 managed to improve the HQ CV buy +1 once each
Slightly less than one in 6 success
Not worth the hassle of learning the extra rules and in game terms not worth the points
Interesting observation Jimbo
I must admit that wasn't our experience in our play-tests, but maybe we are used to using our Recce differently as we have played this ruling or variants of it for so long (as house rules) that we know the best way to get the best out of our recce. E.G. I tend to embed them within an offensive formation and use them to spot enemy in the open where possible.
Going back to Dr Dave's various points ... I can see all your arguments - there are many instances of Recce sending back runners, using flags, passing messages via other friendly units etc. to communicate with their command infrastructures. Radios got more common and more efficient as the war progresses yes, but so did interception of radio messages.
I come back to a fundamental principle, which is that it should be hard for a Recce unit to spot low-profile targets in a BUA - that's my stand-point.
We could add a modifier that adds a + if the unit is shooting or has shot the previous move, or has moved at all, but again I am trying to avoid inter-turn book keeping where possible.
Cheers
Mark
If it has fired it becomes visible to all anyway, so why not to RECCE, so it should be a factor - enemy is visible +1?
I think have to stand by the point that recce shouldn't need to see the enemy. "The area ahead of us is clear" type information is very useful - but I can only speak from the standpoint of conversations I have had with serving officers who have seen combat. BUT, I can see that people thought v2 was too simplistic and easy to get the +1. That recce need a roll to spot what others can see automatically cannot make sense. :o
I'd be inclined to use v2 with:
Good recce - normal, as v2
Average recce - 1 or 2 always fails
Poor recce - 1-3 always fails.