Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Future War Commander => Topic started by: Dranask on 14 May 2019, 11:06:15 PM



Title: Shield domes
Post by: Dranask on 14 May 2019, 11:06:15 PM
My army uses these, my opponent wished they didn't.
We'd appreciate some input as it is not always clear on the intent and the interpretation required to use them fairly, as we feel they can be game changers.

1 - We are of the opinion that a shield dome causes some interference in the ether so is 'visible' electronically so can be fired at by any unit that is in range and can 'see' it.
     Meaning enemy units target the dome rather than targeting the units under it in order to be able to fire at the dome.
     Indeed if the dome is in range they can fire at it even if the enemy is not in LOS.

2- The rules state that if you move through a shield wall you take (per unit) a number of savable hits equal to the current strength of the shield.
    We have decided that this will not apply if the wall moves over you; we feel the intent was that it's a defensive structure not a weapon.

3 - The rules state that; Troops that fall back or retreat into a shield war are destroyed.
      Is this mere contact or direction dependant i.e. safe if being pushed out, but destroyed if being pushed in? Like being pushed out of woods but being pushed into a wall.

Reason  for asking was that my shield dome moved over his units bringing them under it's protection and allowing me to shoot and attack them, without his other units, (those outside) being able to fire at me.
We then realised that this probably meant any units outside the dome could not support either faction, True or False?
It did mean that as if lost combat he would fall back into the shield wall and out of the dome, this would destroy him unless you think otherwise.

This is the point that we realised that my defensive use of the dome, to use it as an armoured smoke screen had actually turned it into a weapon.

So what to do? Your opinions would be appreciated.


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Techno on 15 May 2019, 07:38:54 AM
Can't personally help you with your query D :(.....But as that was your first post....A very warm welcome to the forum. :)

Cheers - Phil



Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: ianrs54 on 15 May 2019, 07:59:57 AM
Likewise no help, but welcome. Good Moaning 


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: fsn on 15 May 2019, 09:35:48 AM
To me "shield domes" are often seen on Saxon protective equipment, therefore in this, as in so much, I am useless.

However, I shall add my warmest welcome to the forum.

Umm ... you wouldn't be having any picture you'd care to share would ye?  Wargaming ones - not your cat, adorable though I'm sure it is. We don't see enough hard SF games. 






Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Steve J on 15 May 2019, 09:36:52 AM
Welcome on board but can't help I'm afraid.


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 15 May 2019, 03:46:53 PM
Hi there - nice to have an FWC query ... where do you guys play?

My thoughts are marked below against each query with a >


My army uses these, my opponent wished they didn't.
We'd appreciate some input as it is not always clear on the intent and the interpretation required to use them fairly, as we feel they can be game changers.

1 - We are of the opinion that a shield dome causes some interference in the ether so is 'visible' electronically so can be fired at by any unit that is in range and can 'see' it.
     Meaning enemy units target the dome rather than targeting the units under it in order to be able to fire at the dome.
     Indeed if the dome is in range they can fire at it even if the enemy is not in LOS.

> So - I read this as the fact that you feel that the 'Dome' stands up above the surrounding units and terrain and so can be shot at.
I'm not convinced about this, as surely it depends upon what the enemy units are shooting over - it might be a Massive unit or a high terrain piece for example.
The 'foot-print' of a dome is not specified in the rules (something for FWCII errata).
However, I think you would probably still need a LoS/LoF to the host unit (carrying the dome) to play the rules as written. However, we have a chap in the club who uses some very nice 20cm coloured plastic half-domes over his shield domed units. If you take that approach, if the enemy has LoS on the domes then I'd rule that the dome can be shot at.
I'd need to check about the use of Smart Missiles and Shield Domes and also Target Designators - but I don't have my set of rules in-front of me.

2- The rules state that if you move through a shield wall you take (per unit) a number of savable hits equal to the current strength of the shield.
    We have decided that this will not apply if the wall moves over you; we feel the intent was that it's a defensive structure not a weapon.

> Your call, but that is incorrect and not the intention - the shield has a physical impact on friend and foe alike.

3 - The rules state that; Troops that fall back or retreat into a shield war are destroyed.
      Is this mere contact or direction dependent i.e. safe if being pushed out, but destroyed if being pushed in? Like being pushed out of woods but being pushed into a wall.

> it's like being pushed into a wall or worse!

Reason for asking was that my shield dome moved over his units bringing them under it's protection and allowing me to shoot and attack them, without his other units, (those outside) being able to fire at me.

> Interesting - you need to shut the dome down (via a Command order) and restart it (via a Command order) to allow your own units in and out without any harm. However, friendly or enemy units that are 'overrun' by your moving shield dome will take casualties as stated in the Shield Dome section of the rules.

>With regard to enemy support fire - I'd rule that the the enemy support units will support any of their units that you assault under the dome - but the fire goes against the dome until the dome is overloaded and then casualties are inflicted on your unit making the assault. If that makes sense.

Think in Star Trek terms - if you drop shields you can use your transporter to board or be boarded.
 
We then realized that this probably meant any units outside the dome could not support either faction, True or False?

> Interesting - your troops outside cannot support your unit - as their fire would also be taken on the dome. However (see above) the enemy support units (I'd rule) will inflict hits on the Dome in support of their friends underneath.
 
It did mean that as if lost combat he would fall back into the shield wall and out of the dome, this would destroy him unless you think otherwise.

> Yes - but then there is also an issue for your own unit(s) under the dome as if they fall back against the stationary dome, they are also destroyed. However, if the unit carrying the dome generator falls back, I'd argue that the dome falls back with it, potentially exposing other units, friends or foe to further casualties as the dome moves over them!

This is like the Stasis Field in the Forever War novel - where limbs are lost of the Stasis Field is activated with a limb outside the field.

This is the point that we realized that my defensive use of the dome, to use it as an armoured smoke screen had actually turned it into a weapon.
> Yes - it can potentially be used that way  ;)

So what to do? Your opinions would be appreciated.

I hope that helps .... are you using a standard FWC list or one of your own construction?

Cheers

Mark


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Dranask on 15 May 2019, 09:52:41 PM
Hi and thanks to all for your warm welcome.

Mark

Many thanks for your answer and we play in Maidenhead.

In many ways it is as I thought and I agree with your interpretation. However I wonder if it might be too much of a game changer for my fellow combatant. He was less than impressed by my terminators.

Regarding support from units outside dome, they roll the dice 4+ hits the dome and no save
However I assume this doesn't affect the combat resolution?

It is based on the the HOF Droid army page 91, I have removed restricted vision and charged the extra 10 points per unit, I may need to reconsider.
I didn't initially use domes, but it was an escalation reaction to his excessive use of smart missile and targets. At 60 point per dome or 180 for three domes in my 4 k point army you can see they cost about the same as a single unit.

Two images attached - excel is my amended point 4k army, the other the original names for units as a HOF army

BTW where do I post pics in this FWC forum or Painting and Modelling?
There is a link to my blog in signature with images.

We showed off the Mechs and other armies at Joy of Six 2018


Regards Mark F


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 16 May 2019, 11:29:47 AM
Hi Mark (we are both Mark F's :D)

Yes - Shield Domes would be hit on a 4-5-6 in the assault by the supporting units, up until they have dissipated/dispersed the Dome.
Once the Dome is removed, all the standard support rules apply.

The HoF Droid army is a nice one ... and the Domes are a handy aspect of the list, but Domes are not the panacea - they have counter measures that can be used against them.

There is a more general section for putting up photos on the Pendraken site - but I'll chat to Leon about setting up specific sections for photos from each of the rules sets.

Maidenhead is not too far from Slimbridge ... we should get you guys across to our FWC Boot Camp next year  :)

Mark (F)


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: ianrs54 on 16 May 2019, 02:06:07 PM
Mark - what's yor commison from the Tudor  ;) ?


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Dranask on 16 May 2019, 07:10:13 PM
One further question.

At the back of the book it talks about light, normal and heavy versions of the Shield Domes (page 123)
I assume the Normal version 120 points (60 for high tech= my army) is three dice.
I've seen no reference anywhere else to the other Domes, would the light be 2d6 and the heavy versions 4d6?

A gallery linked to the FWC area would be grand.

Thanks

Mark F2

ps ianrs54 don't get the Tudor reference.


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: ianrs54 on 17 May 2019, 08:12:15 AM
Its the Tudor arms where Mark holds all his events.


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 18 May 2019, 10:08:55 AM
Hi Mark F2

I'll check that - must admit I'd not noticed that particular omission - but the 2 d:6 for Lights and 4 d:6 for heavy seems both logical and sensible.

No commission for Tudor Arms Ian ... it's a symbiotic relationship - we hold events and the participants get good accommodation, food and beer on-site and we don't get charged for the hire of the pub rooms (usually the skittle alley) and all the tables and chairs etc.

All welcome - we have a BKCIv 1 day Boot Camp coming up in June Saturday 15th June and a big CWC full weekend later in the year. We will also run an FWC Boot Camp in Q2'20 next year ... maybe to coincide with a very important birthday on the 20th April  :D :D :D :D :D

Cheers
Mark


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: mmcv on 19 May 2019, 10:25:09 PM
We will also run an FWC Boot Camp in Q2'20 next year ... maybe to coincide with a very important birthday on the 20th April  :D :D :D :D :D

George Takei or Adolf Hitler?  :(


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 20 May 2019, 11:08:11 AM
My 60th birthday* ....  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I did once have a 'wag' who worked for me, who started off a presentation to me and the rest of my team, at an offsite away-day on the 20th April one year,  with a comparison between me and the Fuhrer. Needless to say he didn't last long!

* I'm thinking of setting up a kickstarter project to fund my next big 10mm army project ... all donations gratefully received  :D


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: mmcv on 20 May 2019, 11:58:14 AM
 :d  :P


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: ianrs54 on 20 May 2019, 12:30:19 PM
I acn off a bent pfenig and 2  old franc coins. May have a 100000 lira note around somewhere.

IanS  ;)


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: williamb on 21 May 2019, 05:41:41 PM


> So - I read this as the fact that you feel that the 'Dome' stands up above the surrounding units and terrain and so can be shot at.
I'm not convinced about this, as surely it depends upon what the enemy units are shooting over - it might be a Massive unit or a high terrain piece for example.
The 'foot-print' of a dome is not specified in the rules (something for FWCII errata).


Mark,
See page 56, paragraph 3, first sentence.  The dome has a radius of 20cm
Regards,
Bill


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 22 May 2019, 10:04:23 PM
Yes of course Bill ... so it is 10cm above table top level - however, the issue then becomes how high are your tower blocks or Massive units (NB: I have a 6mm AT-AT that stands 12cm at the shoulder, in it's stocking feet, for example.

So it is correct that as long as you can see a point 10cm above the Shield dome unit ... you can hit it. So a half-sphere of clear plastic that has a 20cm radius, would probably solve the issue.

Thanks

Mark


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: kipt on 23 May 2019, 04:40:01 AM
Radius of 20cm makes it 20cm high. 


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: Big Insect on 23 May 2019, 11:40:34 AM
You are of course correct kipt  :-[

"The radius of a circle is the distance from the center of the circle to any point on its circumference. The easiest way to find the radius is by dividing the diameter in half."

This is actually a huge area ... I'd not really thought of it that way previously.
And TBF I am not 100% sure that a 40cm diameter shield dome is what the rules actually intended, as buying 3 of them would cover pretty much an entire force at 3,000pts. But I'll have a look at that.

Hmmm one to contemplate for FWCII.  Our own resident shield dome user tends to opt for individual shields.

Thanks
Mark


Title: Re: Shield domes
Post by: stenicplus on 28 May 2019, 12:15:37 PM
The Evil genius (tm) that is Dr Gordon, Lord of Darkness and Imperator of the Universe (tm) has previously used a shield dome to crawl along and destroy everything it its path.

It is as evil as it is cunning, however it suffers from a number of flaws as do many one track FWC armies and hence no longer his key tactic in making all your bases belong to him.

1. It is slow and not without danger trying to move your troops all together under it. Especially with a blunder.
2. You target the dome when shooting, not units inside it. Note page 57 paragraph 4. Once reduced to zero all further shooting at it for that 'order' is ignored.
3. Teleporting troops to inside the dome into close assault with generator unit is a hoot and rapdily decreases the life span of said unit.
4. His troops cannot shoot out of the dome either, without knocking it down.
5. Moving a shield dome costs 1 strength point per move
6. They de-activiate automatically.

Item 2 could be open to question but the fact it says further shooting against it is ignored suggests you are not targetting units but laying down massive fire to remove the shield.




Years of stretching the FWC rules to the limit at Berkeley Vale club have shown that actually combined arms forces usuall work best.