Thank you all for all the BKCIV feedback so far - all gratefully received and appreciated.
Please post any errata, errors or issues in the BKCIV rules and lists here.
All that has been posted to-date is being collated by Leon but if you can post anything else in this single thread that will be helpful.
Many thanks
Mark
Issues with Recce:
Recce: am I reading these right?
1. Recce now move once on a throw of 1-4, twice on a 5 or thrice on a 6.
This means that infantry in middle-high CV armies are likely to outpace their armoured car recce.
2. Recce cannot move and communicate
This means that they cannot drive AND use the radio whilst ALL other units can. Is it just me or has anyone else always found this a bit odd?
3. The +1 Recce bonus
To have a +1 recce bonus the recce unit has to actually spot the enemy in LOS
So the +1 means the command unit thinks it has a clearer picture of the situation and acts with more confidence. But I think that the need to spot misses one important point about recce information: it DOES NOT have to be correct – it merely has to be BELIEVED. Hence the old rule of simply being in 60 cm of the enemy regardless of LOS meant that the recce could not only tell commanders where the enemy is, but also where he IS NOT. Line of sight should not be necessary. If they see nothing then they report that the way ahead is clear of enemy
Our group find the recce rules as they are very unwieldy and not very authentic.
Sorry... :(
Someone noticed on the Facebook page that 'Stubborn' appears in the special rules for the better Volkssturm, but has no definition in the current special rules. (I know what it is in BKC2 and not that it has all but been removed in this edition.)
Recce
The Recce rules are actually a pretty direct 'lift' from what has been used for a long time (with great success) as house rules in both CWC and FWC.
Sorry to hear you guys feel it is unrepresentative.
On your specific points.
Movement:
Yes - if a recce unit on foot (Scouts) rolls a 1-4 it moves only once - however it is guaranteed a move, whereas your infantry being ordered under Command might not move at all if the Commander fails the command roll.
However, and maybe this should be stress in the errata - you can always buy transport for your foot Recce/scouts ... that is perfectly acceptable. Putting your Scouts in a jeep or truck or on horse-back will give them some additional movement and the transport unit is treated as Recce whilst their Recce passengers are on-board for movement.
However, sometimes Recce units chose not to move or got bogged down in assessing a situation etc.
In the CWC and FWC Recce house rules, the Recce moves on a d6 x movement but this was felt by many play-testers to be excessive for WW2. As you had units moving at a speed of 30cm getting a 180cm move on a d6 roll.
Recce cannot move and communicate
You are being too literal - not all armies have radios even in WW2 and very often the act of communication required the vehicle to be stationary, to observe, access, evaluate and report back.
This is primarily a mechanism to stop Recce units becoming super troops.
Line of Sight
This is a thorny subject (& a lot of conflicting views came out in the play-tests and proof reading) as there are many players who find it equally odd that a Recce unit can 'spot' a unit through a couple of BUAs, behind a hill and in a wood (I over exaggerate to make a point).
The original concept of the +1 is purely to provide a bonus to the Commander for a successful recce action. Spotting the nearest unit to the Recce and providing the +1 to the Commander are not linked - so the Commander does not have to target the enemy unit spotted (if an FAO or FAC for example) ...
Other Recce actions such as Pathfinding have been introduced to cover the benefits of providing information on "where the enemy is not".
None of the above answers probably help you much, as it is a concept that many other players/groups have been happy to accept and actually feel provides a much more realistic Recce element to the game.
Mark
Thanks for the thought behind the Recce rules Mark. Some bits of the new Recce rules I like, others not, mainly due to how I happen to view the role of Recce units within the game and also historically. I think a lot of these issues will simpy come down to personal preference. As with BKCII, I will 'tweak' BKCIV to suit my needs, which is fine for me but probably not for others.
With the LOS thing I tend to make it logical, ie the spotter is just behind the crest line or within but close to the edge of a wood or BUA.
Mark, thanks for the reply and understood.
I think the radios issue is too complex too complex for BKC. Obviously scouts way ahead of your force without radios would be of little benefit and going into who has radios and who doesn't is another minefield entirely.
As for the movement issue units are likely to outpace recce - even if recce are guaranteed one move. In real operations recce would (and still do) probe miles ahead of the main force to gather information.
recce move In a CV8 force units move
once 100% 78%
twice 33% 58%
thrice 17% 42%
four 0 28% (infantry would still be in the 20cm command radius)
five 0 14% (assumes no longer within 20 cm of command unit)
I'm not how the new system of recce movement is better than the old system of ordering them but ignoring distance modifiers?
QuoteSo moving twice isn't too hard really for CV8's
It is when I'm rolling the die :D
Dr Dave,
Not sure how you calculated your % chances, but by my reckoning, there are 26 possible dice outcomes of success with a CV8 commander, which I make c. 72%. The chance of rolling a 7 or less in the next round is 21 out of 36 possible outcomes, which is indeed c. 58%. However, to succeed in the 2nd throw, you have to have passed the first roll, which is 72.22x58.33 or c. 42%. The chance of rolling 3rd and 4th orders falls to 17.5% and 4.9% quite quickly and is less than 0.9% for success of 5 orders in a single activation. The special rolls of double 1 giving two orders increases the odds slightly, however, the odds would fall rapidly if the units kept moving as they would rapidly move out of command radius and thus suffer further minus one modifiers per 20cm. So your table should look more like that below, but this does not take into account the command radius reduction, which would significantly reduce these odds. Note the table doesn't compare like with like as the recce is based on a single roll, while the CV8 is based on cumulative chances of success on successive rolls.
Min no of moves recce move CV8 force move
1 66% 72%
2 16.67% 42%
3 16.67% 17.5%
4 0 4.9%
5 0 0.8%
Recce units, as far as I recollect, don't have to be deployed within command radius and can be positioned as the player likes, within certain scenario-driven deployment limits, so there is an incentive to get them forward from the deployment, so they can start scouting from the off, rather than force them to slog across the table.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, Andy
Thanks Dr Dave
Personally I have always liked the roll a d:6 and move that multiple of the Recce's movement in a move approach. However, the play-testers were all but unanimous that in BKC that was far too far. But by all means I'd be interested in your groups views if you adopted that approach as a trial.
There was lot of discussion about whether in certain armies foot scouts had to report back via signal flags or even communicate with the nearest unit with a radio ... but thereby lies madness IMHO.
On the CV8 no move thing ... I agree with Steve J I've lost too many games where I cannot roll anything under a 9 for toffee!
But as I say I'm always open to feedback and to hear how things work out.
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: sediment on 23 April 2019, 10:55:24 AM
Not sure how you calculated your % chances
I used the wrong way! I forgot the dependency issue.
But normal nits should still outpace normal recce with the same move. That just cannot be right in any system - recce being so slow that that get left behind? Panzers outpacing the 222's!
IF it's important that they don't need to be ordered then I'd have gone
die score moves
1 0 (just for the botheration factor!)
2 1
3 1
4 2
5 2
6 3 (recce should be able to range far and wide ahead of the main force - it DID and it still does)
For me the recce rules just work.
They don't model real world processes but they give an effect I recognise from my reading around the subject.
Seems to me that getting the right result for the wrong reasons is the very essence of the Warmaster based rules.
Infinitely preferable to the reverse IMHO.
A small erratum this time.
Fanatics special rule appears as fanatical in the lists.
Not a huge difference, but I wanted to bring it up just in case it was more important than it seems.
Dr Dave,
I've been playing the modified rules in CWC, that Mark refers to, for years. This is where recce roll a d6 and can make that many moves. It feels right to me, even for WW2 for the reasons you give, i.e. recce should be galloping out in front doing their thing - even in WW2 they were ranging across the battle area. As they are units that can be fired at, that was always the rate determiner - the thought that if they stick their nose out of the wood they will be shot up is quite a good control on how far they range in front - personally, I would have disagreed with the more vocal group of playtesters that have required the reduction in movement. However, the command radius modifier does mean that regular units very quickly run out of orders if they try and range too far ahead. That is really my criticism of the new recce support rule. As it stands, recce support can't really support recce units as, if I've read it correctly, they need to stay in command radius. This means your AEC can't add the weight of its fire protection to support the recce Dingo, which doesn't feel right. For my money, recce roll of d6 and get that many moves and the old recce support rules were the best solution to recce - we even modified the recce support rule from BKCII for CWC!
Cheers, Andy
Erm - Desert Storm the Armoured Rgts complained that the recce were slowing them down.
Very minor complaint - the use of Bren Carrier after 1940, they were Universals after that date, and Bren, Scout or Cavalry carriers on or before.
IanS
Hi Ian,
So are there any differences in stat line between Bren, Scout, Cavalry and Universal carriers within the granularity of the game? Alternatively, we could agree that Bren carrier or even Carrier is a good name for all of that type of vehicle?
As for Desert Storm, isn't that more that the armour was overrunning the recce because the recce were trying to do their job, while the armour was keen to press on and bypass the usual recce activity as they could scent a collapse of the Iraqi forces? In our CWC games, recce units often leapfrog each other, one advancing while the next moves to a better position, all while the armour and mechanized boys press on as fast as they can. If recce do their stuff and boost a HQ, then the normal units get an orders advantage, which hopefully helps them overtake the active recce unit. Next activation, it would need to roll high to get ahead again.
Cheers, Andy
GW1: Pal of mine in a CVRT had his ride totalled on day 1 by a speeding CR1 :(
I'll shut up on the recce - each to their own. If it works it works. ;)
There is an omission around Recce Support.
Totally my fault. It was in my head and in my scribble-pad notes but didn't make it to the actual master copy.
All Recce Support should be classified as Independent - so no distance modifiers for Command. It is one of the reason why they are relatively so expensive.
NB: this is why some of the armoured cars (outside of the Recce Support section) are overpriced as well - as they have the intended Recce Support points cost incorrectly.
I got all excited about putting Recce and Recce Support into their own section of the lists and created havoc for Leon who was doing his level best to keep up with my evolving thinking.
It will be picked up in the Errata .... I was just hoping that you lot wouldn't notice it :-[ fat chance!
Cheers
Mark
Air Support Example p53
In the example it mentions American Mitchell bombers as the attacking air support unit. However, in the example, the attack tests for deviation, yet bombers can only be used as a Scheduled Attack and therefore do not deviate.
Italian L3/35 tankettes
These should definately be low profile. There is a case for making other Italian tanks Low profile, but will look at which ones later, if I remember!
Unreliable Special Ability
This could apply to quite a few early war tanks, such as the Italian L3/35s, some British tanks (I forget which one used in the Desert had a note apologising for the engine IIRC) etc. Personal preference will play a part I'm sure, but can make for some fun games.
Dig-In
I think this has been mentioned but it is missing from the rulebook.
Mark - you have 2 dates for the M24 - one in Recce as 7/44 and one in tanks as correctly 12/44. Also the M8 Greyhound should be in Recce rather than the M5/M24's. Yes the cavalry squadrons were supposedly recce units, but did very little of it, and used the M8's and Jeeps on those missions. Most of the cavalry missions were flank security and rear area security. Also dont think the M20 was used by recce units, it was more often a command vehicle in the tank destroyer battalions.
M3 GMC - should have the exposed attribute, it is rather open.
You have omitted T10 and T19 GMC's used in Tunisia, T10 in regimental gun coys ? and the T19 as armoured division field artillery until the Priest replaced them.
M3 GMC should be in the British Italy list, armoured car rgts there used them instead of AEC III or Staghound III, frequently for indirect fire.
Hope those help, I'm still looking !
IanS
ps - good job.
The cavalry shooting range of 10 is presumably firing when mounted and if they dismount they fire as infantry (range 30)?
Ok - why are the British SP's less accurate than their towed ones, it's all the same fire control system ?
IanS
All helpful stuff chaps - keep it coming.
Some of the gun omissions Ian might be due to space restrictions (I don't have my PDF copy to hand to check) and/or a proliferation of calibers with very little differentiation at the scale we are playing at. But I'll take a look.
I know with the French list we had to cut back a lot of the artillery variants and likewise had to lump some of the AA together (20mm and 25mm for example) or we ran over onto another printed page for only a few lines of additional text, and also the differential was minimal.
The whole army list 'thing' is interesting, as personally I'd have opted for a few examples of standard type armies (say a mid-war US, German, Russian, Italian) in the printed copy and all the others available as PDFs. This allows for additions and edits after the print run and also greatly reduces the actual size of the rules books, which have a significant number of pages dedicated purely to lists. However, feedback was very vocal about including the lists in the printed book ... and that was 'our sponsors' choice as well ;)
But ... "you can please some of the people some of the time and none of the people all of the time and wargamers are just plain impossible ... so forget it!" ;D
Is this an error???
Opportunity Fire is listed on P20, P37 and P40 of v4.
"A unit which is under assault and any unit within 10cm may open fire, (in v2 this was Response Fire).............The active player may not change his mind about assaulting once the inactive player declares opportunity fire.........."
If this is correct and Response Fire has gone and is now classed as Opportunity Fire, then I take it still minus 1 and cannot use initiative in your active phase?
P37 clarifies Opportunity Fire as per v2 plus Errata and that a unit can fire once.
Therefore if you are assaulted in your opponents Initiative Phase and the unit survives and the supporting units have used OPP FIRE, then if the units are assaulted in your opponents Command Phase, then none of the can fire if Close Assaulted! They cannot "opportunity Fire" as they can only do so once in the turn!
Is this correct???
Thanks
Andy
Hi I'm Leonardo. I have received the new BKC IV and thank to Leon for his courtesy. I have two questions about Army list.
1) Why jagdpanzer IV is not "Low profile" (It's 1,85m high). Only the last model was more high.
2) In russian Army list there are tanks like KV-1C, KV-1S and KV-85 tha have the same numbers of Hit and Save value like JS-2.
in my opinion this is not correct. the JS-2 had more protective armour capacities. The KV-1S and KV-85 had a minor armor that
KV-1 to improve velocity (infact "s" is for Fast).
Remove the 37mm armed PzIII from the German Africa lists.
How do Recce units give the +1CV to a unit? Is it automatic if the Recce unit is part of a Fixed Formation? If it is outside of a Fixed Formation, it mentions that the receiving unit makes a 'nominal' command roll, but what do they need to roll to get the +1CV?
Dave and I looked for any clues in our game last night, couldn't find any, so simply reverted to the BKCII distances. The only table we could find was for spotting hidden enemy units.
Please help clarify as we're confused :(.
That's how they add +1, by rolling to spot the enemy unit. You need LOS for recce to be useful in this role in bkc4
On the bottom of p29 it says they can communicate with "any of the individual command units within that formation", but on p30 in the example box it says its the nearest. I think it is now meant to be the former since the recce unit has a radio and can choose who they speak to!
I think this means that in effect the recce unit could be next to a unit that can actually fire at and destroy the target, but the recce unit has to dice to spot the same target?
Nearest was the latest iteration, although I have played it both ways. I've found the best use is to boost FAO/C so that you can actually get some fire support. One thing is not clear - does the boost apply for the 1st roll or all of them ?
QuoteThat's how they add +1, by rolling to spot the enemy unit.
If that's the case, it's not very clear, but thanks for the answer.
Quote from: Dr Dave on 24 April 2019, 09:53:46 PM
Remove the 37mm armed PzIII from the German Africa lists.
To be fair, that one is in BKC I as well (dunno about II - can't find my copy atm).
Yeah - it's always been in all the books, but they were never in Africa! ;)
Quote from: Dr Dave on 25 April 2019, 10:04:29 AM
Yeah - it's always been in all the books, but they were never in Africa! ;)
Do the British Early War & Desert lists still have the Support Tank version of the A13, 'cos they were never built AFAICT? (Again, it's in BKC I - sorry, I don't have v.IV).
Nah - she's gone - thankfully
Phew! I am getting some things right ;)
No fear. You'd have been in good company if you did include it - Pendraken still make one. They were designed, but never put into production.
According to Chamberlain & Ellis on the A13 MkII (also known as Cruiser MkIV); "There was also a MkIV CS which had a 3.7" mortar in place of the 2pdr gun. Only a small proportion of vehicles were of this type." So they were produced. Hope this helps?
Quote from: Steve J on 26 April 2019, 07:00:00 AM
There was also a MkIV CS which had a 3.7" mortar in place of the 2pdr gun. Only a small proportion of vehicles were of this type.
If any were built then they didn't make it to the units. In France and Africa A13 sqns have A10CS in the hq troop. Which makes moving the formation around the table a bit of a headache. :(
British list NWE:
- Sexton should be available all the way through NWE.
- Sexton should be accurate if the 25pdr is.
- Why is the Priest seemingly in 4 gun troops and not in an 8 gun battery like the Sexton
- Field arty cannot do CB fire? I'm pretty sure that arty / mortar location radar units were available at all levels in 45, perhaps earlier. I'll check. But anyway, sound ranging was.
- the lists do not make clear which batteries are "field" anyway.
Also, small point, Priest and Sexton are not aircraft!
The M13 AA half track, delete and replace with the M16 version as in the US lists.
Another small point : remove mention of M3 half tracks. They're all M5, M9 etc. never M3.
British Airborne can have 3 motor cycles as transport? That should be zero. They're very few and only used by couriers.
On a specific:
"Field arty cannot do CB fire? I'm pretty sure that arty / mortar location radar units were available at all levels in 45, perhaps earlier. I'll check. But anyway, sound ranging was."
That is because most Field Artillery are on-table, and there is a general rules 'rule' in Commander that nothing on-table shoots off-table (& before you sight air superiority attacks these happen off-table to off-table assets ahead of them coming on-table). Off-table artillery can conduct counter-battery on enemy off-table artillery.
But your on-table Field-Guns can counter-battery enemy guns on table (in the same way they can any other unit) - they can do so on a LoS basis or using the standard directed fire by a nearest visible unit basis (as per the specific rules for on-table artillery and mortars).
NB: I am trying not to get into radar - in BKC anyway.
Hope that helps?
All other errata gratefully received - even the flying Sextons and Priests - not really air-drop type units IMHO :-[
Understood. I got confused since the gunners called all 25pdr regts "field".
No radar? Shame... you could go into frequency and resolution - actually, let's not. :P
There was no counter mortar radar as such, but they did experiment with it using radars from LAA rgts.
One gun that does need adding is the Japanese 70mm Infantry gun. The Japanese are a problem anyway. There are two distinct types of division, Type A - operating in China with tankettes and medium artillery, and the ones in S.E Asia Type B, which dont have the tankettes or medium guns. (OK some did). Then you have the island garrisons, which are all different.
IanS
The Counter-mortar Troops in British infantry divisions were standard on TOE by late 1944 in NW Europe. They were essential in counter-attacking mortars and Nebelwerfers. They were 4-Pen Recorder units stationed 800m behind the front lines, with an array of 4 microphone cables laid out in an arc in front of the front lines - ie, they were only suited for static situations. The microphones recorded seismic data from Nebelwerfer and mortar fire. The men observing the 4-Pen Rercorders had direct radio links to all teh divisional OPs and to Bttn HQs that also reported such fire - the troop then coordinated counter-battery fire by triangulating all these reports. By 1945 most such Troops were so experienced they could locate enemy positions within minutes.
The radars were something else again.
So British & Commonwealth 25pdr batteries in infantry divisions in NW Europe can do counter-battery fire against mortars and rocket launchers any time they are available.
Mark
many thanks Ian/Mark
We can put some notes into the Japanese list Ian - but TBF I have tried to avoid being to specific about what can fight where, unless it generates a really different list.
A separate Japanese Manchuria list PDF is a possibility as of course armoured trains made a big play in Manchuria as well.
I am also considering the following additional PDF lists:
ANZAC
Early War Lithuanian
French North African
South African in East Africa (Ethiopia and Sudan)
British Home Guard
Polish Warsaw Uprising
Other thoughts and suggestions gratefully received?
Cheers
Mark
With the French North African list, please just make sure it covers Operation Exporter in Syria and the invasion on Madagascar too. (If it isn't already) I suspect that the list won't actually change as a result of including those theatres, but it would be a shame if they were missed.
If you do a PDF for Syria don't forget to include the British Cavalry, last charge was in 41, by the Cheshire Yeomanry.
On Counter battery - sound and flash ranging was standard during WWII (and WWI). However it was restricted to specific guns, most weapons could not fire it. 25pdr and M101 105's (I know that is the modern designation) would be very unlikely to fire it. The British would have used 4.5" Guns, later 5.5" howitzers, or larger, US 155mm Long Toms or 4.5" (although rare) Germans used the 10.5 cm gun on same carriage as the sFH18. Soviets would probably have assigned their 122mm and 152mm guns (not howitzers).
AS you remember I assigned specific batteries to CB in our large CWC games.
If you think the Japanese are bad then the Chinese - impossible. There are 3 sides, Mao, Nationalists, and the Japanese. List you have is good for nationalist, Mao is entirely Guerrilla.
Still going through the lists.
IanS
Will certainly look at anything specific on French in Africa (maybe a better name) and include Operation Exporter in Syria and the invasion on Madagascar too.
All list updates appreciated Ian. If there are a lot of changes to a list or additions to specific theatre we might need to create separate lists.
Cheers
Mark - AMR and AMC in the French lists were recce vehicles. Also as an option you could add ATR's, they got 500 Boys from us, we got 500 25mm ATG.
IanS
Quote from: Big Insect on 28 April 2019, 10:51:57 AM
Will certainly look at anything specific on French in Africa (maybe a better name)
Assuming Ian et al meant the pro-German French how about "Vichy French"?
A Vichy French list sounds good - yes
Collaborators?
(As per Petain's instructions)
The German eastern front list, the 88 can fire AA (3/100)
This AA ability needs to be removed.
Agreed - thank you an editing oversight
Quote from: Dr Dave on 29 April 2019, 08:37:44 PM
The German eastern front list, the 88 can fire AA (3/100)
My fault that one, it had come up on the proofreader feedback and I must have missed it on my run through.
1940 french again - no cavalry or M/Cycle in the Recce.
I may have brought this up before, but the orientation of the ground attack template is not very clear. It just says: with the long side in the direction of the attack. How is the direction of the attack determined? Or is is saying the long side runs across or parallel to the long table sides? Assuming a 6 by 4 foot board.
Doesn't having the long side along the direction of attack imply that you need to plot the flight path, or are they parallel to a table edge as Prophaniti suggests?
Isn't the 30 x 10 GA template a straffing zone, so the middle of the template aligns with the attack point and align with the attack direction the aircraft are coming in at from your base line??
My intention here was (as Cross698 states) that the center of the template is on the 'target' unit but the orientation is up to the player flying the plane in.
As all AA fire is directed on the point of attack, the direction the plane flies on from or off to is unimportant/irrelevant.
AA fire on a plane as it comes on-table (& off-table) is covered within the Air Superiority rules - the attacks are combined into a single attack at the outset of the Airstrike (for simplicity)
The idea that the template must be aligned to the direction of the battle was discussed in play-testing, but that seemed odd to me.
I hope that makes sense?
Mark
Recce
[edit] Posted on 01 May 2019 at 07:54:50 GMT
This rule is inherent across the rules sets and has been copy pasted to bkc4.
It states the score required to communicate will be 1 per full 10cm ie 1 upto 10cm, 2 up to 20 etc. Further on it states 1 is always a fail.
This doesn't make sence as you need a minimum or 2 for any distance up to 20cm.
Can anyone shed light on this. In the original concept from bkc1 days, if memory serves anything up to 10 cm was automatic.
Errata/ faq required.
Quote from: vladvondrak on 01 May 2019, 08:21:39 AM
Recce
[edit] Posted on 01 May 2019 at 07:54:50 GMT
This rule is inherent across the rules sets and has been copy pasted to bkc4.
It states the score required to communicate will be 1 per full 10cm ie 1 upto 10cm, 2 up to 20 etc. Further on it states 1 is always a fail.
This doesn't make sence as you need a minimum or 2 for any distance up to 20cm.
Can anyone shed light on this. In the original concept from bkc1 days, if memory serves anything up to 10 cm was automatic.
Errata/ faq required.
IIRC, even in in BKC1, a roll of 1 on a d6 was always a fail.
BKCII had quite a few changes from BKCI, but it's so long since I played the latter, so your example may have been superceded in BKCII. Hope this makes sense?
Quote from: vladvondrak on 01 May 2019, 08:21:39 AM
Recce
[edit] Posted on 01 May 2019 at 07:54:50 GMT
This rule is inherent across the rules sets and has been copy pasted to bkc4.
It states the score required to communicate will be 1 per full 10cm ie 1 upto 10cm, 2 up to 20 etc. Further on it states 1 is always a fail.
This doesn't make sence as you need a minimum or 2 for any distance up to 20cm.
Can anyone shed light on this. In the original concept from bkc1 days, if memory serves anything up to 10 cm was automatic.
Errata/ faq required.
BKCv2 a - can RECCE up to 60 cm and a 1 was always a fail.
This is the same for Reconnoitre, but Communication is totally different in v4, still D6 but now has modifiers ;-
50 -60 cm add +2, 30 - 50 +1, 20 - 30 0, 0 - 20 -1, Higher ground -1, target is INF or Support Unit or Low profile -1
Spotted on Target in open 4+, Soft/Partial 5+ Hard cover 6 - and 1 is still a fail. Targets requiring a score of 7 or more cannot be spotted and this is for CV bonus.
In the Recce rules - a score of 1 to spot for communication (regardless of the distance involved) is always a fail.
There must be a possibility that the Recce might fail to communicate (radio failure, paper info lost on a desk, carrier pigeon eaten by hungry falcon etc.)
The additional factors come out of the Recce House Rules from CWC.
Many thanks
Mark
You are still missing the point . It contradicts itself, it say you need a 1 at 10cm to succeed, then states 1s are always fails. The whole thing is ambiguous.
Quote from: vladvondrak on 02 May 2019, 06:38:00 AM
You are still missing the point . It contradicts itself, it say you need a 1 at 10cm to succeed, then states 1s are always fails. The whole thing is ambiguous.
I understand what you mean, but 1 is always a fail, but it should be shown as
10 to 20 cm 2
20 to 30 cm 3
etc
But I just think that in RECCE as in Engineering a "1" is always a fail.
Quote from: Cross698 on 02 May 2019, 08:25:23 AM
I understand what you mean, but 1 is always a fail, but it should be shown as
10 to 20 cm 2
20 to 30 cm 3
etc
But I just think that in RECCE as in Engineering a "1" is always a fail.
No, shouldn't it be 0 - 20 cm 2 ? :P
yes
Nother niggle - the Grants in the British FE list are really Lee's - the British Army designated Lees as Grant MkIV.
Quote from: Dr Dave on 02 May 2019, 08:58:39 AM
No, shouldn't it be 0 - 20 cm 2 ? :P
The only time it matters is if there are modifiers, as a base of 1 with a -1 to the success (ie now needing a 2), still only fails on a roll of 1
Whereas if it is a base of 2 with a -1 modifier you now fail on a 1 or 2
Crystal!
I'll be sticking to bkc2 recce - simpler, quicker and faster. :P
We've always played the comms were to any command unit in the formation anyway.
Pill boxes and Trenches - points
Looking at these two Field Defences, I'm a bit confused by the points difference between the two.
Trenches are 5pts, give a 5+ save, protect 1 infantry unit
Pill boxes, are 25pts, give a 5+ save, protect 1 infantry unit, have a 90º firing arc, and can only be attacked in this arc
It seems Trenches are much better value?
I do think this may well be a carry over from much earlier versions.
Active vs. Inactive Player Question
BKC IV - Page 18 - Sequence of Play - Opening paragraph, 2nd sentence, states: "....current player being referred to as the Active Player and the opponent being the Inactive Player."
BKC IV - Page 18 - Sequence of Play - End Phase, 1st line: "Remove outstanding hits from all of the active player's units on the table."
BKC IV - Page 39 - Firing Example - 3rd paragraph from bottom, beginning with: "At the end of the turn, all outstanding hits are removed from play, so the two hits against the PZ-II are removed. It is still suppressed..." In this case, the PZ II, hits are being removed from the Inactive Player's unit during the active player's End Phase.
The Firing Example was taken from BKC II and just about matches what is in BKC IV.
BKC II, Page 9 - Sequence of Play - End Phase, 1st line: "Remove outstanding hits from all units on the table." It appears the wording was added in BKC IV with the words "of the active player." Repeated on Page 36 BKC II "...remove outstanding hits..." and...Suppression markers from all units on the table..."
BKC IV - Page 56 - End Phase - 1st Paragraph, 2nd Sentence: "Once the end phase is complete, your turn has ended and your opponent's turn will begin..."
Question: Do we leave both the hits and suppression markers on the Inactive Player's unit when the Active Player's End Phase ends as BKC IV directs?
One of our members spotted this and requested clarification. Thanks in advance for your answer.
Yes, just remove hits and suppression markers from the active player's units only.
Shouldn't there be an option for the Panzer iii oi have schurzen from 1943 ?
Happy to add an option for the Panzer iii to have schurzen from 1943 to the PDF list update - thanks
Hits and Suppression: This always confuses me, let alone anybody else ... but T Square is correct.
I was trying to think of a situation where either Hits or Suppression might be carried over to the next turn, but cannot contrive one. Even with Opportunity Fire or Response Fire or Initiative actions that occurs in the Active Players turn they all result in Hits and Suppression in the Active players turn..
So just to clarify:
1. The active player fires his tank
2. in inactive player uses opportunity fire back
3. opp fire supresses the active players tank
4. the active player makes no more command rolls for that formation and his turn ends then
5. the active player removes his suppression - so the suppression has no effect? :-
Ok
Page 21 in BKCII - "In game terms, units that become suppressed cannot do anything in their turn and suppressed command units may not issue any orders. Troops recover automatically from suppression at the end of their turn".
This is the same in CWC (Page 21)
This is the same in FWC (Page 23)
Page 36 in BKCIV - "In game terms, units that become suppressed cannot do anything in their turn and command units may only issue orders at a significant disadvantage. Troops recover automatically from suppression at the end of their turn".
So, aside from now allowing suppressed commanders to issue orders at a significant disadvantage (see Page 22, you get a -2 if your Commander is suppressed) there is no change to how this works between all 4 core sets of rules.
So back to your example:
"So just to clarify:
1. The active player fires his tank
2. in inactive player uses opportunity fire back
3. opp fire suppresses the active players tank
4. the active player makes no more command rolls for that formation and his turn ends then
5. the active player removes his suppression - so the suppression has no effect ... "
No ...
1). it stops the suppressed tank from firing back at the tank that fired opportunity fire against it, in further turns in this game turn
2). it can no longer move to cover, in the remaining turns of this game turn
If however the scenario is altered slightly it looks like this:
1. The active player fires his tank and hits the inactive players tank and suppresses it (the inactive players tank now cannot opportunity fire)
2. The active player makes no more command rolls for that formation and his turn ends then
3. the active player removes his suppression, but the inactive players suppression remain
4. at the start of the previously inactive players turn, the previously suppressed tank remains suppressed and can therefore take no part in the next set of turns
5. at the end of the (now) Active players turn, the tank that was previously suppressed removes suppression.
Does all that make sense ... it is the way the Suppression mechanism has always worked
Cheers
Mark
Yes. You're right. Just checked and that's how we play it anyway.
Wonderful :D ;D 8)
Cheers
Mark
The procedure outlined is why I use those fiddly red/yellow markers, if the yellow side is showing then it's off at the end of the turn. Otherwise I always lose track.
IanS
Just starting to read the new rules -
Turned to the first army list - American Army, Far East..
Q: - Why do Trucks carry 2 units here please ...or is this an error please?
Thanks
AJ
Trucks in BKC carry 2 units as standard.
It's only some of the smaller vehicles that have 1 transport capacity.
Thanks Fred -
So Officially - this is an error in all Army lists - all trucks are 'Transport (2)'?
Even those tiny Italian ones?
AJ
Just been looking at some of images of Soviet troops packed into GAZ trucks, maybe Transport (2) isn't that generous :)
If a stand of infantry is a platoon, then a stand of trucks is several trucks. I'd happily assume more small trucks or fewer bigger ones per stand for the convenience of "a truck is a truck is a truck."
In BKCII trucks carry only one unit as far as I can see. In CWC they could carry two IIRC.
Correct Steve -
In BKCII .....things carried 1 unit......
hence asking why in BKCIV certain trucks can now carry 2 units ...or this is an error ....Or...ALL trucks now carry 2 units
Official clarification v helpful at this point please
Adam
Unless stated all Trucks carry 2 units - it is allow for the issues that you can get with a unit of infantry and an infantry support unit are in the same truck.
Exceptions will be listed (a piece of errata)
NB: The Italian list is under a bit of a rework as most of the tanks/tankettes should be low profile (as should a number of the IGs) and the smaller trucks should only carry 1 unit.
There are other special exceptions like in the Dutch East Indies list where the half-tracks (well they are actually armoured trucks) would tow a gun and carry the gun crew + an infantry unit at the same time - and no doubt other exceptions will occur.
The intention in allowing BKCIV trucks to carry 2 units is also to bring all the Commander rules more in-line with each other.
So APCs can carry 2 units (or 1 infantry & infantry support or a towed gun + an infantry unit) whilst IFVs can only carry 1 unit.
Infantry upgrades take up no space in a vehicle
Thanks
Mark
Of course in play we certainly almost always use 1 base = 1 Vehicle. Makes life a lot easier.
IanS
Initiative Phase Errata - (p20)
The Initiative Phase rules on p20 should refer to the new Sniper Special Ability on p79, as an exception to the rule that Command Units do use Initiative.
Do you mean Sniper [R] - in which case yes - makes sense to add that in as they are Command units. Although it does state on Page 79 specifically that they can fire in the Initiative phase.
We should probably change the title to Sniper Teams [R] as that is what they are referred to in the army lists (with a few exceptions that have already been noted).
This does not apply to a unit with Sniper Capabilities [R] as they are still ordinary units, that have been trained to snipe and are choosing to do so at that time.
Yes Mark ... 'Sniper' Special ability.
Agree would have been better to be called 'Sniper Team' for clarity.
Interested how they can use long range attack on low profile targets though - see separate post
They are specifically trained to do this.
Cheers
Mark - think this post is becoming too long / covering multiple issues to easily find anything.
Perhaps, until there is an Errata List, it would be better to have anything that wasn't a definite error needing correction as a separate query topic under the Rules Query section?
A
By all means Adam ... I think Leon requested that a while back ... happy to comply :D
Thanks Mark -
Slowly reading through the new rules - have got to page 34 now!
:)
Have you played any games yet? With BKCIV I mean?
Only a couple of quick runs through specific set pieces - to see how the new rules work before putting it all together.
We are trying to use them as standalone (nothing optional for now) ....and from the RAW - rather than pollute from prior version thinking.
Will get there! :)
One quick question about HQs. On p.74 (Army List info), there is mention of 'fixed formations'
(HQ can only order its own subordinate units).
As this appears to be quite a fundamental pre-game decision, I thought this option might be
explained in the 'Command' section and, perhaps, the 'Pre-Game Checklist' but couldn't find
anything. Am I missing something here ? I have only recently bought the game so apologies
if this has been covered elsewhere.
Phil
A good question and suggestion Glorfindel - we are picking up the whole business of Fixed Formations in the Errata update, but do also look at the free PDFs with optional rules - you can download from this site - as Fixed Formations are explained in more detail in one of the PDFs.
Many thanks
Mark
Thank you Mark. I wasn't aware of the pdfs so will have a look.
I must admit I can't wait to paint up some French / Brits and Germans to fight
out some early war games.
Phil
Great stuff Glorfindel
My suggestion is start with small forces and a limited set of unit types - get the hang of these and then slowly expand.
Even Infantry v Infantry games with c 500pts a side with a few support units can be great fun.
Also check out the Itinerant Gamer's YouTube training videos.
Do keep us posted on how you get on.
Cheers
Mark
Mark
Do you have any idea when the errata will be released - we decided to stop playing the rules and wait for them?
Steve
It is taking us much longer than anticipated Steve, as we are sifting through literally hundreds of emails - most of which are turning out not to be actual errata or errors but just clarifications or extensive explanations around specific (& often slightly obscure) potential scenarios.
Was there something specific that was causing your group particular issues or concerns?
Thanks
Mark