Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Releases, Requests and Photos! => 18th Century Requests => Topic started by: abikapi2 on 03 February 2019, 09:57:58 PM



Title: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: abikapi2 on 03 February 2019, 09:57:58 PM
Would be nice to add to my army a couple of regiments of Hussars, present in the Imperial Army since 1688.

In several Painting portraying generals they wore cuirass over or under their cloak, why not to represent one of them?





Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: paulr on 03 February 2019, 11:40:17 PM
I’m not sure about painting conventions at this time but certainly during the ECW painting showed armour to reflect status rather than depicting what was actually worn  :-\


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Steve J on 04 February 2019, 06:59:46 AM
I concur with Paul.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: abikapi2 on 04 February 2019, 01:32:59 PM
Yes, sure 

but could be interesting to represent a general depicted like on a painting  :D


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: mollinary on 04 February 2019, 02:07:24 PM
I think abikapi has a point here. He is not talking about the official portrait where, as others have said, artisitic convention often had generals depicted in full cuirasssier armour. He is talking about the wearing of a cuirass with normal uniform coat. Prince Eugene is certainly depicted as wearing such a cuirass over his coat in the Laguerre painting of Blenheim and in the Oudenarde tapestry, and there is a good representation of him in one in the early Osprey on Marlborough’s Army. Also the second picture he has attached is not a ‘portrait’ as such, but an attempt to illustrate an event. It isnt contemporary, but it does show how a cuirass could be worn with  the coat.  


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: paulr on 04 February 2019, 08:06:03 PM
It would definitely be interesting to represent a general depicted like on a painting :)

Good points Mollinary :)


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Hwiccee on 05 February 2019, 12:27:16 AM
I would place too much faith in paintings and tapestry depicting specific generals in cuirass. They might be right but artists working miles away and often years after are not good witnesses.

This doesn't mean that there is a good chance some generals would be wearing a cuirass. I am sure many did under the coat but there is a good chance some generals at least would wear them over the coat. As there was usually no regulation uniform they were free to do that. Also it was common for commanders who were in addition colonels of a regiment to wear the uniform of the regiment they were colonel of. So for example in the Imperial army in Bavaria in 1704 both Cusani and Gronsfeld were colonel's of their Austrian cuirassier regiments and also brigade commanders. So there is a reasonable probability that they might be dressed in their units uniform & the cuirass which was part of that.

Some period hussars would also be great.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: clibinarium on 05 February 2019, 01:10:43 AM
For the most part its an artistic convention to put armour on generals in portraits. This one of Marlborough is a good example

 (https://collectionimages.npg.org.uk/large/mw07653/John-Churchill-1st-Duke-of-Marlborough.jpg)

It was probably to make them look more martial, and harkened back to classical depictions of Greeks and Romans in armour. It is the kind of armour that would have been worn perhaps a hundred years previously- at the start of the 18th century only really cuirasses and some helmets were still in use in the ranks, and even that was limited to the cavalry, the kind of leg and arm protection show here had fallen out of use by the 1660-1670s period. The tapestries give a better example of Churchill's practical field wear.

(https://siskinbob.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/tapestry.jpg)

The cuirass was still practical to an extent and some generals wore it.

(https://www.britishbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/5-Blenheim-Tapestries-Malplaquet.jpg)
Both images contain cuirass wearing officers.

I am pretty sure that there are a couple of figures from LoA 39 and 40 are wearing cuirasses, under and over the coat.

I didn't bother with hussars for the LoA as they don't really figure in the big battles, and I thought the SYW Austrian hussars were close enough for those that wanted them.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Leman on 05 February 2019, 08:06:54 AM
Some of those pictures reminded me of Madonna  :)


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Ben Waterhouse on 05 February 2019, 10:06:10 AM
Some of those pictures reminded me of Madonna  :)

I will regret this... Why?


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Techno on 05 February 2019, 10:35:07 AM
I saw an elderly and 'fatter' Freddie Mercury.

I've lost it..Obviously. =)  :'( :'( :'(

Cheers - A Twit.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: mmcv on 05 February 2019, 12:29:16 PM
I saw an elderly and 'fatter' Freddie Mercury.

I saw that too...  X_X


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Leman on 05 February 2019, 03:01:01 PM
I will regret this... Why?
The girly clothes and the metal breast covering - but once you have to explain  :-<


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Techno on 05 February 2019, 04:13:17 PM
Oh....No.

Good on you, mmcv.  ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers - A Numpty.




Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: abikapi2 on 05 February 2019, 04:51:43 PM
First imperial hussar regiments


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Hwiccee on 06 February 2019, 11:10:29 AM
The tapestries give a better example of Churchill's practical field wear.

I didn't bother with hussars for the LoA as they don't really figure in the big battles, and I thought the SYW Austrian hussars were close enough for those that wanted them.

On the tapestries you are probably right but bear in mind the tapestries  are works of art, so not intended necessarily to be accurate, that were done 10 to 20 years after the events by artists who were nowhere near events & little military experience.

abikapi2 has posted some pictures of hussars of this era, the French and other states ones were similar. The main problem is the head wear. I guess you could hack the SYW figures around to get something like this. At this time there were not many hussar units but those that did regularly turned up at battles. The largest number of them were in the Austrian army and so they featured most commonly in their battles. There was a Hungarian revolt during the WSS in which both sides had lots of hussars & also they tended to have a greater role in wars against the Ottomans.

I am not sure it is financially worth the company doing them but I think they would be useful.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: mollinary on 06 February 2019, 12:06:09 PM
Hwiccee, I think you may be somewhat too dismissive ofthe tapestries. A document i discovered on the net entitled “Creativity and Disruption in Brussels tapestry 1698-1706: New data on Jan van Orleyans Judocus de Vos,  by Brosens and Slegten attributes the Victires of Marlborough series to the period 1712-15 for design and production. This is pretty close in time to the events themselves, and I doubt if Marlborough would hav been too tolerant of glaring inaccuracies!


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: Hwiccee on 06 February 2019, 01:36:16 PM
I had not seen this document but it is basically an updated version of earlier works, the ones in footnote 8. I think the key word here is 'about' - the text says the they were produced 'about 1712-15'. The exact dates are unknown and these works are in part trying to establish when they were made. The Wace book mentioned thinks 1712-17 and another source I looked at thinks 1715 -1720. Another thread of the discussions in these works is how original were they? This features in the document you mention as well. In short often some or all of the parts in them, or sometimes the whole thing are, copies of earlier works. I am afraid I didn't bother noting these exactly but it is thought there are copied elements and also a number of factual 'errors' in the various tapestries.

So basically we don't really know when exactly they were designed & produced but the basic point stands it was some time after by a group of artists who were not there, and with probably little military experience - if any. There is good evidence that some of details on them are wrong or at least from something else - they are reused designs from something else. Maybe Marlborough did inspect all the details for inaccuracies but would he remember what exactly he wore at such a battle? Even if he did would he be bothered to change what is a tiny unimportant detail in a work like this, beating in mind that unlike us the vast majority of others looking at the works wouldn't care less about this & would be interested in the rest of it.

These were works of art designed to make the commissioner look good, not some primitive 'photo report'. They clearly 'dramatise' the events and distort the picture as part of the propaganda behind the image that they want to project. Are the images something like right, I would guess yes. Are the exact details right, I would guess no.


Title: Re: WSS or LOA Hussars and General with Cuirass
Post by: mollinary on 06 February 2019, 02:05:34 PM
Well we might have much to debate on the details, but  at least we can both agree on your last sentence!