Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Releases, Requests and Photos! => 2019 Previews => Topic started by: Leon on 29 January 2019, 10:27:28 PM



Title: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Leon on 29 January 2019, 10:27:28 PM
Batch 3 of our 1809 Not-Kickstarter has arrived and this month it's the Warsaw sculpts!  We've got the previous 2 sets master moulded so we'll be moving on to the production moulds once we get past the Vapnartak show this coming weekend.  We're roughly on track for starting to ship these towards the end of February as planned.

Warsaw

Command - 2 x Mounted officer / officer / standard / drummer:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4822/46196452204_15c0852d0e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTMf)NapsWarsawComm (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTMf) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Infantry - Fusilier x 2 march attack / 2 x firing / Elite Co x 2 march attack / 2 x firing:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7880/46196452084_38cee66a26_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTKb)NapWarsawFoot (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTKb) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Infantry and Art - Grenadiers x 2 / Line artillery crew x 4:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4885/39956540773_14560072cf_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHvp)NapWarsawGrenArt (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHvp) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Horse Art - Horse artillery crew x 4:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4876/46196451954_a56cb361c6.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTGW)NapWarsawArt (https://flic.kr/p/2dodTGW) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Uhlans - 3 x command / 2 x troopers:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4831/39956540953_56a6e4c34c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHyv)NapWarsawCav (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHyv) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr

Uhlan Elites and Art - 2 x Uhlan Elites / Horse artillery crew x 4:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4838/39956540663_2a4e297021.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHtv)NapWarsawUhlanArt (https://flic.kr/p/23SPHtv) by Leon Pengilley (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156736924@N08/), on Flickr


So with these all done we've only got the Wurttemburgers left to be done!  We'll have those with us soon and we'll get ready to crack on with the production.

 8)


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Ben Waterhouse on 29 January 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Lovely jubbly


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: paulr on 29 January 2019, 11:29:18 PM
 =D> =D> =D>


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: mad lemmey on 30 January 2019, 06:53:02 AM
Rather fab


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Leman on 30 January 2019, 08:09:16 AM
Very nice looking sculpts.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Zippee on 30 January 2019, 08:59:29 AM
Excellent stuff, really looking forward to these


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Techno on 30 January 2019, 10:10:06 AM
Damn fine work, 'Mr X'.

Cheers - Phil


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Shutuphippie on 31 January 2019, 08:06:53 PM
These look excellent.  I assume I could use the Uhlans to represent 1815 Red Lancers....


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 01 February 2019, 02:46:23 AM
These look excellent.  I assume I could use the Uhlans to represent 1815 Red Lancers....


Or Vistula Lancers.  Getting closer to a Peninsula range by the day!


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Shutuphippie on 01 February 2019, 08:10:18 PM

Or Vistula Lancers.  Getting closer to a Peninsula range by the day!

Huzzah! 😁😁😁👍👍


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Womble67 on 03 February 2019, 08:00:16 PM
They look great

Take care

Andy


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: maciek on 22 February 2019, 02:04:16 PM
Your infantry officers are wrong.
They wore bicornes.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Zippee on 25 February 2019, 11:03:42 PM
Your infantry officers are wrong.
They wore bicornes.

Quote Rawkins p26-27
The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat. The hat was trimmed at the upper edges with black leather and hat black leather stiffeners at the front and rear. The white rosette cockade was held with a gold or silver cockade-strap, according to regimental button colour. Field officers had gold/silver lace trim to the upper edge. Pompons & plumes were as for the czapka.

The officers czapka was basically as for the other ranks but as these were usually purchased privately were of better quality and senior officers often had the cap faced with black silk. The upper edges of the hat were trimmed with gold lace, silver for the 2nd Legia, and chinscales and other metalwork were either gilded or silver plated. The eagle plate at the front of the czapka was of similar pattern to that of the other ranks but with decorative scrolling to the edges and was gilded or silver plated; all silver for the 2nd Division officers. All officers wore silver cords and flounders and the white rosette, national cockade was fastened with a silver cockade-strap with gilded or silvered button. The company officers of the fusiliers wore a ball shaped pompon of black; company colour for those regiments serving with the French army in Spain the 4th, 7th and 9th Infantry Regiments. The elite company officers wore pompons of scarlet or green and the full dress plumes were as for the company, or white for the field officers.

In 1810 all lace decorations to the headwear became gold for all regiments and the plates were gilded with silver plated eagles, however, many officers of the 2nd Division appear to have retained their silver decorations at least until 1812. The company officers of the grenadier companies now wore the bearskin bonnets as for the men, however, all metalwork was gilded, cords and flounders were silver and the plumes scarlet. The officers of those units which were wearing the shako had the hat decorated in the French manner, all metalwork was gilt and the upper edge of the shako was trimmed with gold lace. Cords and flounders and company pompons followed those of other officers.
End quote

You should be careful making such sweeping and emphatic statements. Bicorns may well have been a common item of campaign or march wear but they were not the designated uniform item. It is simply incorrect to claim the models are wrong, it's also rather rude to do so without further comment and not particularly helpful either.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: paulr on 26 February 2019, 04:30:24 AM
I note from Maciek's blog that his first language appears to be Polish, this may have contributed to the 'brevity' of his comment
Some more background would have been useful and the information from Rawkins is interesting

My Polish officers are in czapka but are from 1812 and 6mm ;)


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: maciek on 28 February 2019, 10:45:56 AM
thank you @paulr
Indeed, I'm not native English speaker.
I'm sorry if I offended anybody.

@Zippee
Who is Rawkins you cited ?


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 01 March 2019, 01:09:21 PM
thank you @paulr
Indeed, I'm not native English speaker.
I'm sorry if I offended anybody.

@Zippee
Who is Rawkins you cited ?

'WJ Rawkins' is the author of a series if booklets that were published in the early 1970s, on about every army of the Napoleonic period.  I must have had every one, I think, and at the time I was glad to, because information was not easily accessible and they filled a gap.  They are presently available on CD in what are said to be revised versions.  They need to be revised because the originals were, to be frank, not very good.   I haven't seen any of the new CD editions so I can't comment on them.

Be that as it may, if you look at modern material by people like Ryszard Morawski and Jan Czop, and older stuff by Gembarzewski and Malibran and Chelminski, I think you have a point.  It is certainly true to say that a hat was much more typical.





Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: sultanbev on 01 March 2019, 02:17:51 PM
The 1970s Rawkins books are completely different from the 21st Century Rawkins e-books/CDs, and are far more authorative. I have an original one on the Swedes, and the current 3rd editiion and the constrast is massive. Colour is used throughout now too.

http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/

Mark



Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: maciek on 01 March 2019, 08:03:00 PM
Frankly speaking, I lost my interest in napoleonic period in 1990's, so I'm not familiar with newest research, but all sources cited "kapelusz stosowany*" as a headgear of infantry officers.
Only exceptions were grenadier officer who wore bearskins and officers of "Spanish" division, who wore French shakos like their men.

*kapelusz stosowany = bicorn

But wait, wait ...
This page
http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-wg-przepisu-z-2-marca-1807
shows officers in Polish chapska, but only in 1807.

http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-wg-przepisu-3-wrzesnia-1810
According to 1810 regulations, officers wore bicorns.

This page is even most intersting:
http://www.napoleon.org.pl/index.php/biblioteka-barwy-i-broni/piechota-xw-na-podstawie-ikonografii-zrodlowej
because it shows soldiers according to contemporary sources, not regulations !

So it seems, officers can use both headgear ...   
More you live, more you learn as old proverb says ...
 :)


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: sultanbev on 01 March 2019, 08:31:41 PM
Yes, Rawkins book quoted above "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."

So for wargaming purposes, either could be correct. I'll probably do them in czapkas for 1st battalions of a regiment, bicornes for other battalions of the regiment.

Mark


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: maciek on 02 March 2019, 10:06:15 AM
Yes, Rawkins book quoted above "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."

Gembarzewski stated quite oposite:
In 1810 regulations bicorn was worn with full dress, and he didnt mention czapka at all.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 02 March 2019, 02:01:25 PM
Bronislaw Gembarzewski, Polish Army. Army of The Grand Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1814 first published in 1905, republished 2015.   https://www.abebooks.co.uk/WOJSKO-POLSKIE-KSIESTWO-WARSZAWSKIE-1807-1814-POLISH/17733082174/bd




Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: sultanbev on 02 March 2019, 02:42:45 PM
Ah, we are mixing up 1809 and 1810 here.
"In 1810 regulations bicorn was worn with full dress, and he didnt mention czapka at all. " Totally correct I expect,  but this post is about 1809 Polish.

"The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men; however, this was generally only worn for full dress and was replaced in the field with the bicorn hat."
Refers to the 1807-1809 period.

Mark


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 06 March 2019, 01:19:32 PM
I remain unconvinced by Rawkins.   This is why.  Although czpaskas were worn apparently by some infantry during the period 1807-1809, the March 1807 regulations prescribed shakos for all ranks and at least four infantry regiments wore them during the period.  I would like to know where the information came from that "The officers were issued with the same pattern czapka as the men......  Does it say? 


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: sultanbev on 06 March 2019, 01:42:27 PM
pg.16: "The regulations for the dress of 2nd March 1807 called for all companies to be equipped with the traditional Polish cap the czapka,"

which is directly opposite of what you've just said.


There is a list of sources, many Polish, on page 130. It includes the one you mentioned: Bronislaw Gembarzewski, Polish Army. Army of The Grand Duchy of Warsaw 1807-1814.

He does go on to cite exceptions to regulations where they have been found, and mentions that officers' czapkas were privately purchased so were of better quality and describes the decorations (pg.27).

For the sake of 4.50, perhaps purchase a copy and make your own mind up. Although, it is copyrighted 2012, so if you have any newer info from the last 6 years, then by all means share it with us and him so he can make newer edition. The price would be worth the colour prints alone.

http://www.thehistorybookman.webeden.co.uk/shop/4579739022/the-army-of-the-duchy-of-warsaw-1807-1814-w.-j.-rawkins/6718863

Mark


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 06 March 2019, 10:14:13 PM
Curious.  I am not sure what I would gain by purchasing a copy of Rawkins.  I have enough material of Polish origin, already mentioned, which is based on original research, such that buying a copy of Rawkins would hardly resolve the issue.  The only way to resolve it would be to look at primary material to which I dont have access.  Ill let you know in the unlikely event that I do, and learn Polish in the interim. 


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Sandyfalkirk on 06 March 2019, 10:22:05 PM
Interesting topic sprung from the lovely looking sculpts.

Am I correct in saying though that we are better having the model as shown rather than in a bicorne?

There are other sculpts that have the bicorne on foot is there not but none with the czapka?

So interesting debate but surely not a problem in the slightest?


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 06 March 2019, 11:23:24 PM
Perhaps a little background might be helpfull.  When the Grand Duchy was established by the Treaty of Tilsit in 1807 the army, as such, did not exist and the various Polish legions and other units from which it would be formed wore their own distinctive, Polish style, uniforms which usually included a czapska. 

The 2nd March 1807 regulations, which actually predated the establishment of the Grand Duchy, prescribed a new uniform for the 12 regiments that formed the three new divisions of the army.  The uniform was apparently blue with distinctive facing colours for each division and a shako or a czapska for all ranks, depending on the source you have.  How long it took to issue this new uniform is a matter for speculation but it would not have been immediate I think. 

It is apparent that some units of the new army did wear the czapska but their origin is less clear, to me anyway.  They could have been items retained from uniforms of the old legions that now formed the army, or new issues who knows for sure?  That is purely conjecture on my part but it is evident from a variety of imagery that at least 4th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 11th Infantry Regiments wore shakos at one time or another during the period 1807-1809.  Interestingly, 8th is variously depicted with either a shako or a czapska.

What is also evident is that in 1808 the uniforms of the Polish infantry were still in a poor state.  In mid-1808 Davout selected the three best regiments for service in Spain but their uniforms were so badly worn that they had to be re-equipped, at least in part, with French kit.  This suggests to me that either the new uniforms were very poor quality they had hardly lasted much more than a year   or that the new uniform had yet to be issued.  The shako appears to have been worn in Spain and, Id guess, it was French issue. 

You are quite right, though, it hardly matters in the end and nobody can really gainsay you if you depict them in czapska or shako because it seem clear that both were worn.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: maciek on 14 March 2019, 11:23:45 AM
Thanks to my friends I managed to find
graphic descriptions of officers in chapka.

Probably they wore it in 1707-08 campaign.


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Zippee on 14 March 2019, 02:45:44 PM
glad to see we've all had a good constructive chat in my absence.  :D

Nice picture find Maciek

For clarity my guideline with the 1809 ranges was err to the earlier side and definitely central Europe - so although I'm fully aware that the 4th, 8th, etc that were dispatched to Spain were heavily re-uniformed and subsequently increasingly very French looking that wasn't relevant to the range under design. Likewise the uniform state of the early army is almost as notorious as the mud but I wasn't pushing a 'campaign dress' force [we've had this discussion before  :P ] so it is aspirational rather than accurate  ;)

Plus I wanted to maximise the differences where possible - so czapka for company officers just made them different from most officers.

I'm under the impression (no pictures and just second hand) that the 1812 Warsaw range has bicorn wearing officers if that's what you want - and I wanted the 1809 range to be distinct form that range in tone and feel


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: John Cook on 14 March 2019, 04:52:37 PM
Thanks to my friends I managed to find
graphic descriptions of officers in chapka.

Probably they wore it in 1707-08 campaign.


Gembarzewski p57.  On line here - you will be able to make far better use of it that I can!

https://www.dbc.wroc.pl/dlibra/publication/10484/edition/9391/content?


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Dr Dave on 14 March 2019, 06:09:44 PM
I thought Rawkins had Duchy of Warsaw horse arty in colpacks?


Title: Re: 1809 Warsaw sculpts!
Post by: Zippee on 15 March 2019, 02:22:32 PM
Rawkins has this to say on the horse artillery headgear:

"The original headgear issued to the volunteer horse battery of Count Potocki was a lancer style czapka of black with white piping at the edges and a white band around the centre of the hat. The plate was similar to that used by the foot artillery, a white metal Polish eagle above a brass plate embossed with crossed cannons and grenades. Cords and flounders were scarlet and a scarlet ball pompon was worn above the white  cockade on the left side of the hat. The peak was black leather trimmed with brass and chin-scales were brass.

The czapka was replaced in 1810 with a light cavalry style black-brown fur colpack as worn by the Mounted Chasseurs, however, the first company would appear to have continued to wear the czapka until at least the
beginning of 1812. The colpack flamme was dark green with scarlet piping and tassel and was usually worn tucked inside the top of the hat and fastened with a large cloth cover button. The cords and flounders were scarlet and a scarlet pompom or pompon and plume were worn at the front of the bonnet.
"