Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => 20th Century => Topic started by: Raider4 on 12 December 2018, 07:00:19 PM



Title: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Raider4 on 12 December 2018, 07:00:19 PM
Howdo all,

So far I've got Americans as 5 tanks per platoon, Soviet & other Warsaw Pact armies at 3, and the Brits at 4 (per troop).

Anybody know how French or the West Germans were organised?

Thanks, M.
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Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: pierre the shy on 13 December 2018, 08:42:47 AM
I got this from Bruce Rea-Taylor's "Modern Army Lists and organisations for the 1950's and 60's" that I happen to have lying around  ;)

French

Tank Coy 1958 - 68
Coy HQ - 1 x M47 or AMX 30
4 platoons each with 3 x M47 or AMX 30

Light Tank Coy 1960's
Coy HQ - 2 x AMX 13
3 platoons each with 5 x AMX 13's
1 platoon with 5 x AMX13 armed with SS11 ATGW's

West Germans

Tank Coy 1960's
Coy HQ - 2 x M 48 or Leopard 1 (from 1965)
3 platoons each with 5 x M48 or Leopard 1 (from 1965)

Tank Destroyer Coy (in Panzer Grenadier Brigade from ca 1965)
Coy HQ - 1 x Jagd Kannone
2 platoons each with 4 x Jagd Rakettes armed with SS11 ATGW's
3 platoons each with 4 x Jagd Kannones

Tank Destroyer Coy (in Panzer Brigade from ca 1965)
Coy HQ - 1 x Jagd Kannone
3 platoons each with 4 x Jagd Rakettes armed with SS11 ATGW's


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Dr Dave on 13 December 2018, 02:50:00 PM
Don't forget that Russian tanks are in 3 strong platoons for a tank unit, but 4 if they're from a tank bttn in a MR Regt - so 13 per coy in that case.  ;)


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: sultanbev on 13 December 2018, 05:11:17 PM
Some details in the MicroMark collection over at the Wargames Vault:
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/85717/G207M-West-German-Panzer-Brigade-HS2-19621963-West-Germany
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/85719/G208M-West-German-Panzer-Grenadier-Brigade-HS2-19621964
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/86265/R62M-Russian-Tank-Division-19581964-East-Europe
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/86268/R65M-Russian-Motor-Rifle-Division-19581964-East-Europe
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/84537/A58M-American-Armoured-Division-19581962-all-theatres

Mark


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Raider4 on 13 December 2018, 07:19:33 PM
Thank you, pierre the shy. That's exactly what I was looking for.

Cheers, M.
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Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: ianrs54 on 14 December 2018, 08:08:52 AM
Er - British were in 3's, Squadron had HQ, with IC 2IC and Dozer, 4 Troops of 3.


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: mad lemmey on 14 December 2018, 01:12:51 PM
There was a brief experiment with 4s (it's an on running argument with Timecast boys), but the washing up was too much.


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Raider4 on 14 December 2018, 05:37:28 PM
Er - British were in 3's, Squadron had HQ, with IC 2IC and Dozer, 4 Troops of 3.

Oh, for pickle's sake . . .

I had assumed that the 4-tank troop introduced in the Medium/Cruiser armoured battalions in 1944 had continued post-WW2, when they upgraded their Shermans/Cromwells/Comets to Centurions.

This is mostly based on knowing that the Aussies in Vietnam used 4-tank troops, and I'd assumed they still followed UK practices.

I know from lots of sources on the web that post-1980 troops were 3 strong, but information for 1950-1980 seems to be much harder to accumulate.

So, does anyone know when UK armoured troops reverted back from 4 to only 3 tanks? (pierre the shy's book may be very useful here . . .)

Thanks, M.
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Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: sultanbev on 14 December 2018, 05:43:47 PM
You have to remember the late WW2 4-tank troop was an anomaly - it was a three tank troop with a Firefly added. Comets then followed this 4-tank troop for the duration of the war, as it was easier to retrain troop crews that way. And Churchills remained 3-tank troops through out.

Pretty much as soon as the war ended and demobilisation started, 3-tank troops were back in fashion. It was only in the mid 1970s when they returned for a while, to give us massive 74-Chieftain tank regiments.

Mark





Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: ianrs54 on 15 December 2018, 07:45:31 AM
Roughly 1945, after the fireflies disappeared. Certainly Cents were never in 4 vehicle troops. It was proposed in the early 80's, but probably not enacted, due to manning problems. The vehicles existed to make Armoured rgts up to 4 squadrons, with 4 troops of 4, but the crews weren't there.


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: T13A on 15 December 2018, 09:22:17 AM
Hi

This probably does not help much but in the mid seventies in BAOR we (2RTR) had 3 tanks (Chieftain) per troop as standard. However for a few months I definitely remember going to 4 tanks per troop as an experiment before reverting back to 3. In practice of course tanks frequently breakdown... in our case usually next to a bar or café.

T13A out


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Sunray on 15 December 2018, 11:11:23 AM
Hi

This probably does not help much but in the mid seventies in BAOR we (2RTR) had 3 tanks (Chieftain) per troop as standard. However for a few months I definitely remember going to 4 tanks per troop as an experiment before reverting back to 3. In practice of course tanks frequently breakdown... in our case usually next to a bar or café.

T13A out

Thanks T13A,  that brings back a few memories.  I can recall the CFB Suffield "wargames"( after we go kicked out of sand pit playground in Tobruk)  with the Battlegroup having  2 squadrons in troops of 4 Smokey Joes .   Perhaps that is where Head Shed got the idea for the experiment ?
Our hosts  were still operating Centurions at that time.  :)


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: T13A on 15 December 2018, 03:40:58 PM
Hi Sunray

Apologies for going off topic but…. Suffield brings back memories. I can remember in August 1976 flying out to Canada the day after my 21st birthday as part of an Irish Guards battle group (4th Guards Armoured Brigade, Munster) and not feeling very well. After prepping the vehicles for a couple of days we went out onto the prairie. I remember getting out of my sleeping bag after the first night covered in spots. On being sent back to see a doc. he laughed out loud saying ‘that’s chicken pox’ and being whisked away to a small Canadian military hospital and spending the next 10 days in isolation. They were terrified that I had contaminated a 600 man battle group sent all the way from Germany to Canada. Fortunately I made it back to my troop for the main live firing exercise at the end of the deployment. The sight of a whole battlegroup of Chieftains, infantry and artillery firing together at night is something that will remain with me till the day I die.

Cheers Paul


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: paulr on 15 December 2018, 06:39:53 PM
No need to apologise T13A that's more on topic than most comments in most threads ;) ;D

And very interesting


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: Sunray on 16 December 2018, 10:58:08 AM
Hi Sunray

Apologies for going off topic but…. Suffield brings back memories. I can remember in August 1976 flying out to Canada the day after my 21st birthday as part of an Irish Guards battle group (4th Guards Armoured Brigade, Munster) and not feeling very well. After prepping the vehicles for a couple of days we went out onto the prairie. I remember getting out of my sleeping bag after the first night covered in spots. On being sent back to see a doc. he laughed out loud saying ‘that’s chicken pox’ and being whisked away to a small Canadian military hospital and spending the next 10 days in isolation. They were terrified that I had contaminated a 600 man battle group sent all the way from Germany to Canada. Fortunately I made it back to my troop for the main live firing exercise at the end of the deployment. The sight of a whole battlegroup of Chieftains, infantry and artillery firing together at night is something that will remain with me till the day I die.

Cheers Paul

Thanks for sharing Paul.  ;D  And feel free to express the reality check of squaddie experience when you see fit.  The forum loves black humour.
Suffield was usually a very positive experience.  It allowed a level of exercise that was impossible on "the Plain" or the crowded German countryside.  Were you ever send on a  vital mission to check the real width of the village street ? (Lots of narrow streets around Seesen).  The ability to squeeze through without dislodging medieval brickwork could win or loose an exercise.

There were towns like Padreborn that even constructed special "Panzerringstrasse" .  I am sure the KGB made notes of how they could use them to downsize FIBUA and keep the momentum.   As my OC put it " If Bastogne had had a Panzerringstrasse the Germans would have won the Battle of the Bulge".  Make a note  Cold War gamers.   

But I digress.
The greatest threat to a British Army unit during the Cold War era, was not the Warsaw Pack, but a crowd of suits from MoD evaluating "efficient amalgamations".   Could it be that the three tanks per  troop as opposed to the four, kept a regiment functional on paper? :o :o

 



Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: mad lemmey on 16 December 2018, 08:32:19 PM
Sounds like Soxmis had tape measures!


Title: Re: Tank Platoons, c.1962
Post by: holdfast on 14 March 2019, 08:41:10 PM
I am coming late to this, for which sorry.
However, it is worth remembering that there is a difference between the peace establishment and the war establishment, and that folk leaving had a reserve service liability which was occasionally invoked.
That was how it was planned to man the extra crewless tanks. Whether the mobilised reservists would have made it in time is anyone's guess and depends on how prepared the politicians were to signal an escalation in readiness by calling up reserves. The difference between PE and WE was in the order of 15% overall but about 20% of officers (to fill the Liaison posts with flanking formations, posts which were seldom filled in peace).
The challenge for most of the time in question is that selective call-up of reserves wasn't possible. There was in effect one big switch on the call which said 'Mobilise reserves'. After 1st Gulf War we got a bit more clever and were starting to mobilise specific categories of specialities.