Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => BKC-III => Topic started by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 09:31:54 AM



Title: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 09:31:54 AM
Hi fellow groupies.

A recent game of BKC2 in our small gaming group brought up a couple of questions that I would welcome understanding how others play -

Q1: Moving into an unoccupied Trench or Pit (either previously friendly or enemy held defence)
Terrain rules on p19 and the Terrain Movement Summary on p140, are both clear that movement for Troops on foot, tracked AFVs and Cavalry, treat Trenches & Pits as a Linear Terrain Obstacle. Page 19 states that these units stop when contacting Linear Terrain, may then cross and then move full distance on the next successful order.

Does this mean that Units entering Trenches/Pits to take up position should stop at the edge of the Field Defence ...and then enter next move? Or should Units stop within the Trench/Pit - similar to entry/exit of Area Terrain?

When looking to see if there had been any clarification from Pete/others on the old Forum - all I could find was a note from Pete confirming a rules clarification on Close Assault ...where it was ok for Infantry to use a Consolidation move to get back into trenches they had previously left to conduct the CA.

What do others do and why please?

Q2 : Tactical Doctrine Adjustment to Breakpoint calc (p43).

Does the Flexible or Rigid Doctrine Breakpoint adjustment per 1000 points apply for every FULL 1000 points in a Battlegroup (like maximum Unit Limits on p44) or not. I.e. Does a Flexible Battlegroup with 800 points get a -1 or nil adjustment? Does a Rigid 1600 point Battlegroup get a +1 or a +2 adjustment?


Thoughts very welcome!
Please forgive the cross posting onto the old Forum too.
Thanks
AJ


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Steve J on 04 November 2018, 11:40:25 AM
Q1: Personally I would allow them to enter the trench or gun-pit on the move they contacted it, as per area terrain. My reasoning is that they would want to get into cover straight away.

Q2: An 800 point Battlegroup with Flexible Tactical Doctrine must surely get a -1 deduction? However this points allocation bit I've never been that clear on or happy with, so tend to go with what feels right to me.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: petercooman on 04 November 2018, 12:13:37 PM
1: we let them take cover. Reasoning that if you want to cross a wall, you move upto it, and cross it next move. While you are upto the wall you count as in cover as well. So seems logical to treat all linear obstacles the same.

2. We count per 1000 point "slots". The moment you pads the 1st 1000 points you are in the next "slot"


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 12:35:55 PM
Thanks Peter

Ref (2) -   Does that mean you apply an adjustment when the Battlegroup has 800 points?
Thanks


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: petercooman on 04 November 2018, 01:38:23 PM
Yes.

Just double checked with the online battlegroup calculator. Made a 750 point army with 12 units, and got a breakpoint of 5, so you get the modifier.

(https://i.imgur.com/xH8VxlH.png)


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 02:49:18 PM
Thanks Peter

I thought the Battlegroup calculator was not working on Doctrine adjustment.
E.g. If creating a 1600 point group - it didn't seem to uplift any adjustment, compared to an 800 point group.
Also - if creating a 2000 point group ....it still seems to only deducts 1 from the Breakpoint.

Maybe it is meant to work the same as Army Limits - with one rule for a Group up to 1999 points ..and then change limits when the Group reaches 2000 points?
You would think something this fundamental would be an obvious one - guess not!
 :-
Adam


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Shedman on 04 November 2018, 02:59:53 PM
Maybe it works the same as Army Limits - with one rule for a Group up to 1999 points ..and then change limits when the Group reaches 2000 points?

That is the way we play "per 1000 points" in FWC ie 1 to 1999, 2000 to 2999 etc


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Genom on 04 November 2018, 05:45:05 PM
1) we play you stop and occupy on next movement. Which makes more sense in my head when it's the enemy trench as you might consider checking that they've not left any booby traps for you.
2) we play with or part thereof for breakpoints, but usually on the occasion when we're making up our own forces rather than using orbats we tend to take the limits from the lower 1000pts, so a 1400pt force would use the limits for a 1000pts


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 05:52:01 PM
Thanks Andy

On (2) for clarity :
(i) You give an 800 point Flexible Battlegroup a nil Breakpoint Adjustment (rounding down)?
(ii) You give a 1400 point Flexible Battlegroup a -1 Adjustment?
(iii) You give a 2000 point Flexible Battlegroup a -2 Adjustment?

Thanks
Adam


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Leon on 04 November 2018, 09:08:20 PM
Just to derail slightly, is anyone else curious what that bookmark is on Peter's screenshot, titled 'Aan de Slag'?   :D


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 04 November 2018, 09:49:08 PM
I think it is Dutch for 'Start' or 'Begin'.

...Now we can get minds out of the gutter and back to loftier thoughts!


 ;D ;D


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: petercooman on 04 November 2018, 09:49:55 PM
Just to detail slightly, is anyone else curious what that bookmark is on Peter's screenshot, titled 'Aan de Slag'?   :D

"aan de slag" means "get started"

Hate to be a partypooper Leon, but it's the "get started with firefox" bookmark that is standard on your browser  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


edit: seems AJ was ahead of me with his post!


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Leon on 04 November 2018, 10:05:43 PM
Well that's no fun!  Strangely I've never had that bookmark appear on my Firefox, I'll have to go see where it's gone to.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: petercooman on 04 November 2018, 10:11:54 PM
Always been here. I'm on windows 7 though, don't know if that makes a difference.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: Genom on 04 November 2018, 10:26:05 PM
On (2) for clarity :
(i) You give an 800 point Flexible Battlegroup a nil Breakpoint Adjustment (rounding down)?
(ii) You give a 1400 point Flexible Battlegroup a -1 Adjustment?
(iii) You give a 2000 point Flexible Battlegroup a -2 Adjustment?

For Breakpoints we use for every 1000pts or part thereof or in other words round up to the nearest thousand.
(i) 800pts, is part of a thousand so -1.
(ii) 1400pts, is -2 for 1 full thousand and part of a thousand.
(iii) 2000pts is -2 for 2 full thousands.

Apologies for adding the other bit, the lower bracket was for orbat troop limits, so the 1[3] for example for a troop type, we tend to use the lower options. so at 1400 pts, we would only be allowed 1 of that troop type, to get  2 you'd need to be at 2000pts.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: williamb on 04 November 2018, 10:42:04 PM
Because the points values for Cold War Commander are very high for later mbts, I switched to percentage of unitss for CWC and BKC.  The normal percentage is 50%.  For flexible I use 40% and for ridged I use 60%.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: lowlylowlycook on 05 November 2018, 03:58:24 AM
I think it is Dutch for 'Start' or 'Begin'.

...Now we can get minds out of the gutter and back to loftier thoughts!


 ;D ;D

Well what about Gary's Bits then?  Are they naughty or nice?


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: fsn on 05 November 2018, 09:31:13 AM
In this place, "loftier thoughts" means dreaming of converting the attic to a wargames room.


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: petercooman on 05 November 2018, 02:02:02 PM
In this place, "loftier thoughts" means dreaming of converting the attic to a wargames room.

I converted the loft into two rooms for the kids (yes the bedroom that became vacant is bigger than the ones in the loft  ;D ;D ;D ;D )


Title: Re: BKC2 query (prior to release of BKC4)
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 11 November 2018, 06:12:21 PM
Thank you to those who replied in answer to my original questions - very helpful.

Personally then - I like the following solutions :-
(1) Allow a unit entering a trench/pit to end their move in the trench/pit..no need to stop at the edge before entering. Working on the same principle as troops entering Area Terrain - taking the available cover.

(2) Tactical Doctrine - impact on Breakpoint : Point adjustment per 1000 points or part thereof. E.g. 1-1000 = 1 : 1001-2000 = 2 : 2001-3000 = 3 etc.    Simple but importantly different to the Army List Unit Limits.

Thanks again.
Adam