Hi Folks
I've been considering the new 10mm Aztec range. I have no great desire to start a new period en-masse but I do really fancy painting these in small numbers but my knowledge of Aztec warfare is limited so I have some queries.
Can anyone offer advice on which figures might work for Mixtec/Zatopec, Tarascan and Purempecha (Chichimec) armies – particularly the latter, as no 'warrior' archers are included in the range. Any Pendraken range or compatible manufacturer would do. I'm aware of some similarities between the armies (in appearance at least) but there still seem to be gaps when the similarities are taken into account (including bowmen as mentioned above and also shield bearers with large rectangular shields).
As it doesn't fit in with any other period I do at present I need some rules. I have found some dating back a while that seem to be a bit of a fusion between DBA & DBR (New World DBA) but would like something a bit more focussed on the native warfare as I have no interest in adding Spanish to the mix.
I'm looking for small battle / large skirmish type, multiple figure bases and some good 'flavour'. I'm not interested in individual based skirmish rules or any that require tons of figures but somewhere between the two. Ideally they would be specifically written for early South American warfare but can't find any such beast so probably have to manage with a non-specific set.
Tony of TTT
For rules I'd recommend Irregular Wars. Focused on this era, mainly on European exploration, but would work for native vs native.
Quote from: fred. on 15 April 2018, 07:07:46 PM
For rules I'd recommend Irregular Wars. Focused on this era, mainly on European exploration, but would work for native vs native.
Wot 'e said.
Also all lists are included. Ideal numbers and mechanics for your target game.
Battle report here - http://irregularwars.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/irregular-wars-aar-spanish.html (http://irregularwars.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/irregular-wars-aar-spanish.html)
While I may buy a copy of IW for a project a mate has been chuntering on, I don't see them as a solution to rules for this project.
IW is essentially a set of colonial rules and they rarely take natives seriously, confirmed by there being only 1 native troop type and the rest being European. Ignoring all the random stuff the basic engine isn't that innovative but, as is usual with Nic's stuff, it will be well presented and explained.
I'm coming to the conclusion that the elusive set of rules actually written with Meso-American warfare in mind simply doesn't exist so I'll have to be satisfied with something more generic - or write some.
Now all I need is some info on the figures - looks like that may be a blank too.
Thanks guys
Tony
I have a conquest army using DBA-HX written to 2.2. and have had some really fun games with them. It gives this army list for the natives.
61 Mexican Armies, 1485-1530. E=60. 3x4Bd or 3Aux, 3x3Aux, 3x3Aux or 4Bw, 3x2Ps.
However, I would see some of them as Warband, especially the cuahchic warriors.
Also, another thing to consider is that Meso-American natives also used great numbers of slingers for missile troops, and probably more than they did bowmen, with the exception of maybe the Tlaxcallans. I would think any slinger figure in a loincloth would work, but you may need to modify the hair to being straight and cut in a pageboy.
Shield patterns can be a lot of fun and the best source for finding them is to search for the various codex of the period as they are a wealth of information.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1MKDC_enUS771US771&biw=1920&bih=949&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=h8XUWvfXKsqbzwK76JSwDA&q=mesoamerican+codex&oq=mesoamerican+codex&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0.186394.187428.0.189996.5.5.0.0.0.0.60.280.5.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.5.280...0i30k1j0i8i30k1.0.YT4iNt5lDe8
Always been a favorite theater and certainly a very colorful one. I have been toying with doing a HOTT army with the Eagle warriors as Flyers, and the Jaguar warriors as beasts, then some Shooters, and Warbands, with a few Hordes of the newest troops. Plus look at some of their mythology to see what other creatures I might be able to bring into it.
Terry
Hi Terry
There is quite a mix of army lists in DBA3 - mostly very similar to the one you give but with more specific variations for different tribes.
Some bowmen would be just spiky/long or feathered hair and loincloth but at least two tribes had 'proper' warrior classes armed with bows and melee weapons (I think this was a fairly late development but not really sure - many of the internet sources contradict each other on details). Ideally some guys in quilted cotton with bows or even a cloak or something like a poncho. I'm OK painting 10mm but not very good at conversions so the closer I can get the better.
I have done a vaguely Meso-American HotT army in 6mm and used one of the 10mm flying lizards from Magister Militum as Quetzalcoatl.
Tony
Hi Tony,
It's probably been a good ten years or more since I did all of my research to build my army. I still have the codex I used, as some are bound and sold as books, plus untold amounts of time researching on the net. I was a big DBA gamer until they changed to 3.0 and they lost me at that point, but I have a copy and might look at the army lists.
I would be very interested in which figure you used for Quetzalcoatl if you know the catalog number.
I will follow your progress as I have always been a fan.
Oh, and although you are not interested in doing the Spanish involvement, if you want a good read and account of their involvement I highly suggest "The Conquest of New Spain" by Diaz. he was a member of Cortes's army.
Terry
Quote from: TinyTinTroops on 16 April 2018, 01:35:23 PM
IW is essentially a set of colonial rules and they rarely take natives seriously, confirmed by there being only 1 native troop type and the rest being European. Ignoring all the random stuff the basic engine isn't that innovative but, as is usual with Nic's stuff, it will be well presented and explained.
I'm not sure that would be my take on the rules or the lists. There are many native army lists, yes their is only one 'native' special rule, but there are many native troop types represented. I'm sure if you are wanting to focus on meso-american wars then you will want to add more detail, but I suspect that would be true of any army lists.
With the IW rules, I think the way the whole game fits together is very good, and their are a number of innovative ideas - the auto wounding for flanking is one, and its one we've pinched for our home brew rules.
Hi Terry
I think it was Quetzalcoatlus - this just fit on a 40mm wide base.
https://www.magistermilitum.com/era/pre-historic/din93-quetzalcoatlus-x1.html
but there is at least one larger one of similar type
https://www.magistermilitum.com/era/pre-historic/din141-hatzegopteryx-standing-x1-11153.html
Tony
Hi Fred
You may be right but I don't have the rules and all I could find on the 'net supported that hypothesis.
As I said though, I'll probably get the PDF so I won't dismiss them out of hand.
Tony
Quetzalcoatl - The Plumed Serpent
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0ADmMkQFg6mcDqvw_FytUxrCVhByPrQm1JlAolopmCpU7NuRg)
Modern incarnations tend to show Quetzalcoatl as a winged serpent
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/dc/96/5cdc962c76e279a27270cf6cbebf7875.jpg)
Here is another way Quetzalcoatl could be represented, and one I am considering. I game in 15 MM, but for this figure I'd use a 28 MM figure and would probably have to do it is a conversion. But I am not committed yet and am looking at various dragon figures to convert. Probably have to take the dragon snake body and add the wings up to just behind his head, as that seems how he is usually depicted, and add some extra pluemage. Also, his wings are wide, but not overly long. Would make a fun project and a delight to paint!
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh235/terry37photos/Misc%201/Quetzalcoatl%205_zpss47cjcio.jpg) (http://s257.photobucket.com/user/terry37photos/media/Misc%201/Quetzalcoatl%205_zpss47cjcio.jpg.html)
Tony, thanks for sharing which figure you went with. Hope you painted him very colorfully!
Terry
I tend to think of Quetzalcoatl as a giant Axolotl.
Devouring souls ... but with a smile.
The old GW Coatl would be ideal but prices on EvilBay are astronomical.
I have one that's being used as a mount for a Skink hero in my Warmaster Lizardman army.
You might find these suggestions for Lion Rampant useful - http://ilivewithcats.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/quetzalcoatl-rampant.html (http://ilivewithcats.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/quetzalcoatl-rampant.html)
I've an army pack of Aztecs I was going to sort for them, 1-3 figures on a 20mm base, possibly either just use 12 bases per unit as the rules are written at full scale, or treat each figure as one figure and go to CM's (using the 1/2 figure bases to "break change" for losses), to allow me to use less figures and a small table at the club.
>>I have one that's being used as a mount for a Skink hero in my Warmaster Lizardman army.
What a spiffing idea ! I might have to swipe that one if i can find a suitable model...
I think I have 2 of those knocking around somewhere
Hi Toxicpixie
Lion Rampant has been suggested on other forums where I asked the same questions. I just don't like the single based, buckets of dice skirmish games I'm afraid.
Thanks for the input though.
Tony
Multi base the 10mm's so it looks like a mob of a few dozen men for each unit? I liked the idea so much I picked up an Aztec army pack specially!
Ofc now I have to roll them into the painting queue and then find time for a game so maybe this time next year I'll give you first hand feedback on the idea :D
I am likely to have the same problem Toxicpixie. I still have some projects from my painting service to complete (which, in theory, I retired from last year !!) as well as the last couple of minor forces for my RCW project.
It all depends on whether I then do these or finish one of three part-finished jobs, do the terrain I need for WW1 & RCW or get one of the unstarted projects out of the cupboard.
In truth I need a new project like I need a hole in the head - but that never stops me starting them, finishing them is a whole different board game.
Tony
Hello
For the Quetzalcoatl I was thinking of a Brass Naga figurine with the wings from the Pendraken Dungeon Elder Thing:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hindu-Amulet-Statue-Small-Antique-Brass-Gold-Tone-Naga-figurine-Good-Luck-Gift/263560871560 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hindu-Amulet-Statue-Small-Antique-Brass-Gold-Tone-Naga-figurine-Good-Luck-Gift/263560871560)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Uz4AAOSwuShahvie/s-l1600.jpg)
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3396/DUN-MON32.jpg)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
GMan, I really like the figure, but for HOTT he is too small to make a very convincing Dragon. A Dragon figure is mounted on a 40 by 60 MM base and I am afraid he'd just be too lost on it. However, those wings look perfect for adding to some kind of snake or dragon body so I will have to get a set of them. Thanks for that heads up!!!
Terry
Hi
If you're after bigger then you can look at the Schleich and Mojo snakes
Schleich
(https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-qnjeuni46r/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/5446/18361/Schleich_Rattlesnake_14740__98277.1522900235.jpg?c=2)
Approx. 5.9 x 4 x 3.4 cm (LWH)
Mojo
(https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-qnjeuni46r/images/stencil/1024x1024/products/7575/12216/Mojo_Rattlesnake_387268__22660.1490059482.jpg?c=2)
Approx. 6.5 x 6 x 3.2 cm (LWH)
They both work out as about 4 quid here in Australia. Might need bigger wings though :).
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Quote from: TinyTinTroops on 17 April 2018, 07:17:37 PM
I am likely to have the same problem Toxicpixie. I still have some projects from my painting service to complete (which, in theory, I retired from last year !!) as well as the last couple of minor forces for my RCW project.
It all depends on whether I then do these or finish one of three part-finished jobs, do the terrain I need for WW1 & RCW or get one of the unstarted projects out of the cupboard.
In truth I need a new project like I need a hole in the head - but that never stops me starting them, finishing them is a whole different board game.
Tony
Amen to that :D
Those Schleich etc snakes are great! Keep an eye out on the Pound Stores as well - they often have useful animals or dragons or other figures. They had some excellent massive Romans a couple of years ago who are now giants for my D&D game ;)
Apologies, my Google-fu has clearly been weak of late. Knew I'd seen this somewhere but couldn't remember who made it!
https://www.alternative-armies.com/collections/monsters-and-creatures/products/vnt27-coatl-winged-serpent
Eight quid gets you one, and twenty one quid gets you three, of these ...
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0371/5545/products/vnt27_slide_600pix_1024x1024.jpg?v=1499711427)
This thread led to some furious searching of the net for winged serpents / coatl / couatl
etc...
I found this from Reaper Miniatures. :
https://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/couatl/latest/14459 (https://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/couatl/latest/14459)
I am quite pleased with it but don't know if it will be big enough (I'm sure I've heard that
before somewhere :D)
Phil
Ah Phil!!! That is absolutely perfect and I will be ordering him right away. Also love the coloring and will use that as my guide! At the 6.99 price that tells me he is made for 15 MM scale and that is a plus too!
Guess I'll be starting a new army here, but they can be a perfect army to fight my 16th century Spanish!
Thank you!!!!
Terry
Amazing how a thread can morph into an entirely different search and be more successful than the original !!!
I think I might have found some archers to work with - at least some that are worth a try.
Pendraken's own Indian hillmen - a bowman and a javelin man that can (I hope) be concerted to atlatl. Old figures so may not be up to the same standard as the new sculpts.
Also some Old Kingdom Egyptian bowmen from Magister Militum.
No luck yet with any in quilted top though.
Thanks for all the help
Tony
This thread has renewed my interest in these very colorful fellows that I enjoyed about 12 years ago. I have started digging out my old references and re-reading them for my doing the HOTT Aztec army. I have the figures so that's no problem and found the great one for the Quetzalcoatl figure, so I'm all set there.
Just some observations after a day's review of my old references. The colors although bright, at least in the Mendoza Codex are not the brightest shades. For example, the yellow looks more ocher and the red is a darker red - not a Santa Claus red, etc. The blue is a sky blue however, but maybe even more like the Vallejo dark sky blue. So we have to ask is that due to the paints the codex was done with or was that how they looked. We'll never know until a workable time machine is available, so you can take what ever path you want regarding the hue of the colors you use. Just FYI, I plan to follow the darker tones.
Also, specific shield patterns, at least based on the various codex were associated with certain suits worn by different suit warriors. The same seems to be true for back banners also.
I wanted to share my great source find back then, but when trying to access it my anti-virus programs came up flashing bright red, so thanks to some moron with nothing better to do than deny others a great resource, I am not able to share it.
I did print everything off back when I was doing my research, and wish I could share it easily, but I am talking maybe a hundred plus pages of material. However, if anyone wants some specific data I will try to assist if I can.
I will also recommend that by studying the various codices you can match suits to shield patterns,and the colors various suits were made in for accuracy. here are a couple that I have and find useful.
https://www.amazon.com/Codex-Mendoza-Aztec-manuscript-Commentaries/dp/B000NW3G4M/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1524244695&sr=1-4&keywords=codex+mendoza
https://www.amazon.com/Codex-Borgia-Full-Color-Restoration-Manuscript/dp/0486275698/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1524244695&sr=1-2&keywords=codex+mendoza
I am so caught up in this project that I may move it up in the painting queue and get started on it????
Terry
>>Ah Phil!!! That is absolutely perfect and I will be ordering him right away.
Really pleased that it fits the bill. :)
I love the look of this model (the paint job is also superb) but just hope it
is the right size. You'll have to let us know what you think.
Phil
From the price and piccy and Reapers usual scaling I think it's about a large 28mm figure; should look spot on for a massive monster in an army of 15's :)
I'm tempted by the AA one for MAXIMUM HUGENESS but as I'm not even anywhere near getting my Aztecs into the queue let alone onto sticks I think not.
>>From the price and piccy and Reapers usual scaling I think it's about a large 28mm figure
That sounds perfect - I really think this would make a fantastic addition to a Lizardmen army,
(with Carnosaur stats), particularly with the eye-catching colours.
I think I still have an old Lizardmen hero - will have to dig it out. Our group play Warmaster
fairly regularly and I was lucky enough to buy quite a few Lizards when they came out.
Phil
My Warmaster is all Pendraken :D
Which has reminded me, as a gateway to Aztecs I should have gotten *Dragon* not Lion Rampant, I could have straight tontable with that. And then miffic Aztecs with feathered serpents and wierd "eyes where the nostrils should be" monkey-puma things and flying Eagle Knights!
Phil, I will indeed let you know how the figure works, but you're right - at a 28 MM size figure he makes for a great dragon in 15 MM. The allowed base size for a Dragon in HOTT is a 40 x 60 MM and he looks like he'll fit that fine. I also plan to use that paint job as the reference for painting him because I agree, it looks the part!
It's already been shipped, so I hope to have it this coming week and ill take a picture for you all to see.
Terry
Darn this thread !!! ;) Now I have a whole new army to paint! I have finished working up my army list and have sorted through all of my left over Mesoamericans and have come up with the following army.
1 x Blade – General @ 2 AP 2 pts
1 x Flyer – Eagle Warriors @ 2 AP 2 pts
1 x Beast – Jaguar Warriors @ 2 AP 2 pts
2 x Blades – Suit Warriors @ 2 AP 4 pts
2 x Warband – Cuachiqueh and Otomi @ 2 AP 4 pts
2 x Shooter – Bow/ Atlatl/ Slingers @ 2 AP 4 pts
2 x Horde – 0 to 1 Captive Warriors @ 1 AP 2 pts
1 x Dragon – Quetzalcoatl @ 4 AP 4 pts
Total 24 pts
I had everything but the figure for Quetzalcoatl, and Phil solved that one for me - THANKS Phil! I have received the figure, but it will be difficult to photograph him until I go to put him together . I tried setting him up for a picture but could not make the wings or the head stay in place, so will have to do it after I start working on the army. I will say it is a very nice figure and quite detailed. The metal is hard and stiff so allows for little modification, but he looks great the way he comes, and fits the base perfectly but I will have to modify the basing from the one supplied to make him fit lower on the base.
Terry