I'm looking at an English Civil War project using the new
For King and Parliament rules.
One of the key decisions I'm going to have to make is how to base the foot battalia.
FK&P sensibly has 5 different types of foot battalia:
- Pure Pike
- Pike Heavy
- Standard (1 Pike: 2 Shot)
- Shot Heavy
- Commanded Shot
Each type also has large and small variants, potentially giving 15 possible combinations.
I definitely want to differentiate between units with Pikes and Commanded Shot (as they represent less men in the rules)
What I am not sure about is if I need to differentiate between the pike ratios and/or large and small units :-\
These details will of course be shown on labels on the unit but do I need to different mixes and numbers of figures as well?
The challenge is that the more I want to differentiate the more figures I will potentially need
There appear to be at least three different approaches to basing for the Pike and Shot era
Component basing with each unit made up of multiple small components of a few figures each
(https://inredcoatragsattired.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/inv-campbell-center-waits.jpg?w=700)
Module basing with each unit made up of about 3 modules with multiple figures on each module
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/892/41103302141_c2c88460c5_c.jpg)
Unit basing with a unit being a single base with all figures on it
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4187/34478134496_f96a6544a6_b.jpg)
Each approach has pros and cons and each obviously works well for those who use them
Component basing gives maximum flexibility with the minimum number of figures
Module basing gives some flexibility but will require extra figures.
My current thinking on module basing would be to have 'fixed' shot wings and use one of three different types of central module; pike heavy, standard, shot heavy. I could also use a complete shot module to make commanded shot units. I'm not sure how I would show large or small units using this approach. This is further complicated by a desire to have mainly single colour regiments
Unit basing gives minimal flexibility and so maximum figures, it is simplest and does allow for mini-diorama basing
I'm in the fortunate position of starting with a clean slate and can select the approach that best meets my needs/wants
I think the key question is how important is it to show the pike to shot ratios with figures. I think this should to some extent be linked to what commanders on the field could discern and depictions in contemporary art.
My current thinking is torn between module basing to show the ratios and unit basing which doesn't show the ratios.
One option with unit basing is to vary the ratios slightly to add variety between bases but for the unit labels to define the actual ratios
Members of the forum, if you have read this far thanks for your patience, I look forward to your thoughts
Couple of points:
1. Single colour regiments were probably not that common, especially away from the main Oxford and Essex armies. Also most coloured coats were worn by both sides. I haven't yet bought the rules, but have been following Simon's blog on this and he uses a separate module for the colour party, which he places behind the pike block, which would make similar 'uniformed' units more flexible.
2. In the Polemos ECW rules it is suggested that pike heavy units have the front of the pike figures right at the front of the base, pike light have the back of the figures aligned with the back of the base and 1:1 have them in the middle, with the front of the pike figures aligned with the front of the two shot groups. In all cases there would be a gap between the front of the base and the front of the shot and the back of the base and the rear of the shot. Apologies, but I don't have a picture to show this.
My plan is to go down the Module route, with each base being 30mm square and three per module. It allows me to use them for Baroque as well as mixing stuff up, such as Attached Shot with Cavalry.
Currently considering ECW (again) or LoA. For basing, flexibility is the key; therefore modular or component. What new rules will you be playing in 5 to 10 years time? I like the idea of a separate command base. Been thinking about this for years (think I first saw this in the Gå På rules) - positioning can be used to designate command status, etc. I see Simon (co-author) and Mollinary have used this in the YouTube video. If I do start collecting ECW armies again, I think I will standardise all P&S units as shown on the YouTube video and devise a simple marker system to show the different proportions of Pike to Shot. Link to YouTube video:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssAOTqVJxk&t=133s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssAOTqVJxk&t=133s)
I'm going down the Monmouth Rebellion & Glorious Revolution route using the simply wonderful LoA range, with a few ECW bits'n'pieces thrown in with the Scythemen for good measure. Some spare ECW & LoA figures may feature together as County Militia units.
Thanks for the feedback
A thought that occurred to me overnight is that as well as the large and small variants there are also three different levels of military experience, So if I wanted show that by the quality of the drill of the figures as I did for my AWI militias then there are 45 possibilities :o X_X
I'm tending to using a 'standard' unit with some variation to make them interesting. Some with more pike, some with more muskets, some in good order, some with less ordered ranks...
The label would then identify the pike:musket ratio, unit size and military experience.
If I base my armies on a particular battle I'll use the actual units to guide the mix and placement of figures
Single colour regiments, I'm looking at having colour themed regiments with a more campaign look. So a green regiment will have a lot of figures wearing green but will have a mix of other, mainly drab, coloured clothing as well
The Polemos approach with pike is an interesting one, perhaps it could be used with a modular approach with spacers to move the pike to one of the three positions
I am keen on these rules, having played To The Strongest.
But as I like Impvtus and Baroque and Pike and Shote, I will be going with single based units of 120mm frontage (Baroque). It enables lots of 10mm figures and even a little scenic display on the bases.
Baroque is one of the reasons we are looking at 12cm wide bases
They also will work work well with FK&P using a 15cm grid :)
I'm definitely tempted by the scope to add scenic displays on unit bases :-\
Forgive me for seeming a bit dozy, but isn't three (or four, with separate command) 40mm bases more flexible than one 120mm base. Lots of figures means lots of glue, means more chance of warping as well. Then there is the opportunity to field different units with the same figures - just change the command base, which can be shallower than the other bases and thus less intrusive.
Quote from: Leman on 07 April 2018, 08:23:26 AM
Forgive me for seeming a bit dozy, but isn't three (or four, with separate command) 40mm bases more flexible than one 120mm base. Lots of figures means lots of glue, means more chance of warping as well. Then there is the opportunity to field different units with the same figures - just change the command base, which can be shallower than the other bases and thus less intrusive.
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Yes. And I agree with the idea of smaller, less intrusive command base.
It is more flexible, but if you have colour themed units then some of that flexibility could be lost :-\
If I go with modules then a shallower command module makes a lot of sense :-bd
Baroque does mention having a unit made up of 3 bases, as this gives lots of flexibility to the formation of units. This is a big bonus for me.
One of the really useful things about this sort of open, supportive discussion is that it helps me understand my thinking
One of the advantages of the modular approach is that the modules can be used with rule sets that have the components of the battalia fight separately, e.g. DBR
Given the level of game I and our group like to play this is an advantage we are unlikely to make use of :-\
The big advantage of the modular approach would be that by:
- removing the pike and adding a couple of spacers you convert a pike & shot battalia into commanded shot
- or conversely add pike to a commanded shot unit and get a pike & shot battalia
- you could mix shot from a couple of regiments to show commanded shot from a couple of different regiments
- removing a module from a unit of horse would covert it into what FK&P term a small unit...
It is still possible to be creative with the basing if the modules are deep enough :-\
As I've written this post I've moved from slightly favouring unit basing to favouring module basing :-\
I like unit basing visually and it significantly helps over the course of a game with movement management, since you are in effect moving roughly a third of the bases you normally would. This benefit is enhanced with the plonk down nature of grids (great for bad back types).
Working with a smaller scale and older eyes, I tend to find that from normal gaming distances, I need to instantly recognise what a unit is and what type of weapons it has. This is less of a problem with horse and musket as everyone is marching around with a musket, but get into other periods of bill, pike, spear, sword. light / medium / heavy armour and it becomes more difficult and being able to add distinction to unit basing helps significantly with that problem - and of course here with the musket / pike ratio thing, that is just as relevant
The downside (as a hex user) is that many of my hills have a rounded character and the larger base can look strange on them, with either one or both ends of the unit hanging in the air and fitting them amongst buildings or showing column for road movement visually distracts, though can be got around.
Having gone down one route, re-based and then re-based back part way through, I would recommend a temporary basing while you make sure you are happy with what you are doing.
Quote from: Norm on 08 April 2018, 06:23:18 AM
Having gone down one route, re-based and then re-based back part way through, I would recommend a temporary basing while you make sure you are happy with what you are doing.
Good advice thanks Norm....we have gone down that route by using cardboard unit sized bases for our test games and seem to be happy with the modular method of basing.
Very happy with the new FK&P rules and we have got amazing support for them from the rules authors.....for 10 quid they are best investment I have made for a while 8)
Sorting out what figures we are going to use now.
Seconded
Thanks for a very useful discussion all :)
I've shared my plans for sabot bases with Pierre the Shy and we seem to be in general agreement :)
One question from those with experience with sabots, I'm looking at a single rank of infantry command figures including flag on a 40x9mm base. Is 9mm going to be stable enough in a larger sabot?
Paul, I use single line narrow pieces for various unit add-one. Mine ar 1/2" width (so about 13mm) and of various lengths (increments of ~25mm). They work ok but I use magnetic move stands (sabots). I know you use magnetic vinyl on your bases (for transportation iirc) so that might be a solution.
If you are going with small 'modules' for the bases, then I'd suggest having a good sized edge around the sabot, to ensure everything stays in place, and there is something solid to pick the unit up by.
I did some 28mm figures with some 40x20mm bases with magnetic tape on them, and while they stayed OK on a sabot, without any edges, it was a bit wobbly when picking up the unit to move - but for those rules footprint mattered a lot, so I didn't want to make the sabot too big.
Thanks d_Guy and Fred
The plan is to have a 3-3.5mm edge on the front and sides of the sabot and a 10mm edge on the back with room for a label
Horse and Guns will be on be 40x40mm bases
The plan is to mount pike & shot on 40x30mm bases with 40x9mm bases with officers, drummers and flags so I can use a variation on the Polemos basing suggested by Leman
9mm rather than 10mm to allow some 'wiggle' room
Another option would be to base the pike & shot on 40x25mm and officers on 40x14mm, this might cramp the use of casualty figures on the pike & shot bases, or some variation in that range
Quote from: Leman on 04 April 2018, 11:05:43 AM
...
2. In the Polemos ECW rules it is suggested that pike heavy units have the front of the pike figures right at the front of the base, pike light have the back of the figures aligned with the back of the base and 1:1 have them in the middle, with the front of the pike figures aligned with the front of the two shot groups. In all cases there would be a gap between the front of the base and the front of the shot and the back of the base and the rear of the shot. Apologies, but I don't have a picture to show this.
Can anyone tell me the dimensions of the casualty markers EC38-EC41
The casualty markers: The foot fit onto 20mm circular mdf bases, and the horse ones onto 25mm circular bases. I have large numbers of mark disorder! Re 'wriggle room', I think it is a great and necessary idea when using sabots. Rather than use it on the bases, I ask for its inclusion in the space left in the sabots. I normally allow 1mm for every base along that particular axis of the sabot. So if your sabot is to contain three bases, left to right, I would add an extra 3 mm in the sabot. If you have two bases front to back, then add 2mm.
Thanks Mollinary
I'm looking to include a few casualties to add variety to the units and will use some small brown pom poms we already use for a number of different rule sets to show disorder
I'm leaving wiggle room in the sabots and plan to standardised on a 130x55mm base with a 124x42mm hole for both battalia and Swedish horse. For horse there will be three 40x40mm bases, for foot three 40x30mm bases for pike and shot plus three 40x9mm bases for officers, drummers and standards. Perhaps I can get away with 40x10mm for the officers etc.
I'll be having a chat to that nice Mr Leon in due course ;)
I've been doing some research on ECW battles looking for something that isn't too big but is significant and interesting to base this project on :-\ :-B
I came across Cheriton 28th March 1644 it pits The Earl of Forth and Lord Hopton against Sir William Waller with about 5,000 foot and 3,500 horse on each side.
Interestingly for an ECW battle there is a lot of terrain including at least 2 ridges, a large wood and a lot of enclosed fields; both sides used a lot of commanded shot.
Mollinary has been very helpful and I now have a couple of orders of battle and a possible order sorted out.
I will leave both Mollinary and Leon in peace until after Salute
The order is, of course, larger than I initially intended and that is without the sabot bases X_X
Quote from: paulr on 07 April 2018, 07:39:48 AM
Baroque is one of the reasons we are looking at 12cm wide bases
They also will work work well with FK&P using a 15cm grid :)
I'm definitely tempted by the scope to add scenic displays on unit bases :-
I am following you on this with my ECW project, which is next on the list.
I will be using 120mm frontage large bases as per Baroque as I want to be able to use the armies with at least three sets of rules FK&P, Baroque and Pike and Shotte.
Also the large units will offer a good modeling scheme...
A couple of questions as I start refining my wish list :-\
Did English musketeers in the ECW use rests?
If so would all musketeers in a battalia use them or is a mix more likely / possible
At the moment I'm looking at using a mix of
EC03 Musketeers cap (with rest)
EC14 Musketeers hat (with rest)
EC28 Musketeers advancing hat (which I'm told are actually Musketeers firing hat, no rest)
EC37 Musketeers, advancing (with no obvious rests)
Also by 1644 how many pikemen might still be wearing armour?
I'm looking to use a mix of
EC1 Armoured pike
EC2 Unarmoured pike
more to mix poses than to include armour, would 20% armoured be too many?
With regard to the use of rests, they were certainly used at the start of the ECW, but were gradually discarded as lighter muskets were adopted. It's pretty safe to assume that the NMA didn't use rests and probably not the Royalists either by 1644. I have only a few units with rests, and am shying away from pretty coloured regiments these days, as most of the evidence points to them only really being prevalent at Edge Hill. As the war progressed most of them seem to have gone for undyed wool, blues, reds and greens, probably in muted colours. Many units outside of the main armies, eg the Cornish, appear to have worn civilian dress with a field sign. As for armour, I'm not so clear on that, but I believe the first thing to be dropped was tassets, probably followed by the back plate, and many troops later abandoned it altogether, including the helmet.
This project is definitely firming up :)
I've now calculated the number of figures I need, based on my current lists for Cheriton, in two different ways and came to exactly the same number of figures :o
The answer is, of course, more than originally intended ;)
That jolly helpful Mr Leon is willing and able to produce the sabot bases I'm after :)
Now all we need to do is:
- play a test game with our regular group, to see if they enjoy the rules as much as Pierre the Shy and I do
- confirm my lists for Cheriton
- confirm Pierre the Shy's order for his forces from up north, we'll combine the orders to save on postage
Had a brief chat about this project with Pierre the Shy after our continuing Napoleonic game last night
Another pack of mounted Dragoons and 4 sabot bases added to my order :-$
The magnetic vinyl I glue to the underside of my bases for security during storage and transport is 1-2mm thick
Using sabot bases for this project will mean that using this magnetic vinyl would make the bases too thick
What do people use...
Quote from: paulr on 23 April 2018, 09:51:47 PM
The magnetic vinyl I glue to the underside of my bases for security during storage and transport is 1-2mm thick
Using sabot bases for this project will mean that using this magnetic vinyl would make the bases too thick
What do people use...
Hi Paul,
I didn't quite understand what you meant by "too thick". Do you mean when they are place in a sabot the are raised too much?
FWIW I use the magnetic vinyl on my bases as well but now use magnet receptive sheets (also ~1mm) to cover the MDF Leon custom cuts for me to make sabots. I don't frame the sabots since things seem to hold together pretty well using this construction.
Hi d_Guy, the bottom of the sabot is 2mmt thick MDF, then the 1-2mm thick magnetic vinyl, then the 2mm thick MDF base the figures are on means the bottom of the figure base will be 5-6mm above the table :o
This approach would also mean transporting the figure stands out of their sabots, so there magnetic vinyl can hold them safe while traveling
Pierre the Shy has a foam transport option I'll have a look at on the weekend
Another option I'm thinking about is 'steel paper' or 'magnetic paper' but I'm also interested in other approaches
Hi Paul - thanks, I see what you mean. obviously I accept the figures being raised but understand a "thinner" approach looks better. Incidently the magnet receptive sheet I am using is probably the "steel paper" you mention. This stuff:
https://www.custom-magnets.com/magnet-receptive-rolled-steel-plain.html
Paul the magnetic vinyl you use sounds very thick. The self adhesive magnetic sheet I use is 0.7mm I think. Steel paper is very thin, just the thickness of a couple of sheets of paper.
Yes, the vinyl I currently use is deliberately thick, it makes the bases easier to pick up without making them to thick (the vinyl doesn't go right to the edge of the base)
It is also readily available at a reasonable from sign writer supply stores, it is used for applying removable signs to cars and for fridge magnets and similar...
Quote from: Leman on 07 April 2018, 08:23:26 AM
Forgive me for seeming a bit dozy, but isn't three (or four, with separate command) 40mm bases more flexible than one 120mm base. Lots of figures means lots of glue, means more chance of warping as well. Then there is the opportunity to field different units with the same figures - just change the command base, which can be shallower than the other bases and thus less intrusive.
The potential warping of the bases is not an issue for me as I use Tiny Tin Trooper's pre-magnetized bases. The magnetic strip take away that issue.
Could you not just base the figures directly into the magnetic vinyl to reduce the height by 2mm?
If you're worried about warping just magnetise them to any old tin tray/biscuit tin lid/baking sheet while the basing material sets and maybe increase the rigidity with Milliput or similar.
Cheers!
Meirion
I've had the chance to compare the lists that I, with assistance from Mollinary, came up with for Cheriton with an article on the battle in a recent issue of the Arquebusier from the Pike and Shot Society
I was very pleased to see a high level of agreement between the article and the lists :o :)
This project is getting very close to being ordered
There are a number of decent OOB's for Cheriton, including the one in the Pike and Shot society magazine, but I am afraid they involve a lot of guess work. They are also not the worst problem with doing Cheriton. There is a lot of dispute about exactly where the battle happened and what the terrain was like. Also on the details of the units - tactics, etc. The good news is it is a good game, or at least with the rules I have used.
There is also a useful OOB and map for Cheriton in the first ECW campaign scenarios book (available from Caliver) which covers the west country campaigns of Waller and Hopton, including some very obscure little affrays as well as the bigger scraps like Roundway Down.
Leman reminds me that there is also the four volumn set of battle scenarios at Partizan Press (and an additional one for sieges IIRC). Lot's of grist for the mill. A few errors here and there but not objectionably so. Cover most of the battles in Montrose's campaign, Benburb in Ireland and, as Leman says, many obscure battles (including the one fought on this side of the Atlantic in Maryland). Worth having if you are pursuing ECW (WTK).
Thanks Guys, the Pike & Shot Society kindly sent me the recent article on Cheriton, books added to my wish list :)
We finished our ongoing Napoleonic game last night so will be doing a test game of FK&P with the wider group next Saturday :)
Will be interesting to see what they make of the rules :-SS
I suggested we do the Montgomery scenario out of the rule book, but thinking about the Scottish interests of most of our group Tippermuir might be a better first game :-\
A quick compatibility question
How will LOA36 Mounted command, standing (7) and LOA37 Mounted command, moving (7) fit with the ECW range both in terms of size and build and style of the officers dress :-\
Pierre the Shy, thanks for the idea of using these to add variety to the officers
As I finalise my order another quick question, any suggestions on some figures to mix with EC8 Peasants to add a bit more variety to my 'Rabble' :-
ELM14 Peasants mixed weapons :-\
Any others?
Quote from: paulr on 28 April 2018, 10:36:46 PM
A quick compatibility question
How will LOA36 Mounted command, standing (7) and LOA37 Mounted command, moving (7) fit with the ECW range both in terms of size and build and style of the officers dress :-
Pierre the Shy, thanks for the idea of using these to add variety to the officers
Paul here are a couple Q&D pics I just took comparing ECW (on right) and LOA (on left) Command stands
(They are made intentional big so you can see details)
(https://inredcoatragsattired.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/20180428_215608871_ios.jpg?w=1000)
(https://inredcoatragsattired.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/20180428_215358052_ios.jpg?w=1000)
The LOA are slightly taller and more full but I think they integrate well enough.
Two essential differences. In the late 1650s men style was beginning to change noticeably:
The wide brimmed hats are getting more turn ups and officers were getting tape and even feathered fringe (this last noticeable on the LOA sculpts). Painting them the same color as the hat would minimize this difference.
The more marked difference is the coats. In the 1640s they are short and flared out at the waist to form a short skirt. By 1660 they are longer (knee length) and the flare is less dramatic. Still this is fairly dramatic difference in the sculpts as is the post 1660 exaggerated cuff.
Me - I would be "fashion forward" and mix them but they are noticeably different!
Yes - both that you mention plus AS5, LOA16, and even a few SYW12 and EC42 because one simply can not have too much Rabble (which could include women). There are no rules! :)
The clothing doesn't always match the 1640s but with a bit of tissue paper, green stuff and paint much can be altered.
Thanks for posting the pics of your command stands D Guy, very helpful indeed as always :)
I decided to go with the LOA officers as the LOA36 Mounted command, standing (7) and LOA37 Mounted command, moving (7) figures are made in very "dynamic" poses if you know what I mean and the limited sources I have available on the period suggested that even the Scots commanders were fairly nattily dressed. I realise that the fashion had changed somewhat but I'm prepared to live with it.
Not expecting too many conversations with "button counters" about the length of the officers coats ;)
I applaud your decision Peter. :)
Incidently my MacColla Command stand are all figures on foot. The old boy himself is an officer figure from 1745 JS4 (shimmed to add a foot or two to his height) with a claymore "borrowed" from the 1513 Flodden ER3 Highlander giving an average date of 1629! Close enough! :D
Thanks d_Guy, I'll also include some 'natty' dressers to add some variety and dynamism to my command stands :)
Some interesting options for the Rabble
I can only agree Bill, some great looking command stands! Love both periods too.
Terry
Thanks Terry - just to remind everyone - Toxic Pixie painted the LOA figures for me.
I've just sent Leon Pierre the Shy's and my order to get the price X_X
I'm sure it will be very reasonable :D
Thanks to all for your assistance, particularly Molinary who has provided very helpful replies to my emails
Mollinary runs one of the best support desks going!
He does indeed :) :) :)
He has some competition from Leon who has, in his usual efficient and helpful way, priced our order
And very reasonable it is :D
Order tweaked slightly and placed, thanks Leon :)
Ok, I admit it, I added a couple of things
FK&P had a very successful debut with our regular gaming group :)
Pierre the Shy's summary of the game can be found here http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,16966.msg255527.html#msg255527 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,16966.msg255527.html#msg255527)
And my observations have ended up on the next page http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,16966.msg255530.html#msg255530 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,16966.msg255530.html#msg255530)
It went so well that Pierre the Shy even admitted during our half time tea break that we had already ordered the figures ;) ;D
pierre the shy was simply leading from the front. :D
I've been tinkering with orders of battle for Cheriton with help from Mollinary and I am pretty sure I'm happy with version 9 :-B #:-S
Fortunately the changes haven't been too drastic and the figures I've already ordered will still give me everything I need for the battle :)
In fact they will give me more than I need as there are 14 :o units of Commanded Shot which I've ordered pikes for as well ;)
Now on to sorting out coat colours and flags
Quote from: paulr on 11 May 2018, 10:11:25 PM
Now on to sorting out coat colours and flags
A bit more straight forward for the Covenanters.....any coat colour so long as its hodden grey and most regiments have the saltire flags in various colour combinations.
Still have to work out exactly what shade of grey hodden grey is - probably use a few different shades of grey for separate battalia ;) the colonel of the regiment evidently bought uniforms en-masse for the whole unit.
Sorted out some clan banners for the highlanders - Camerons, Gordons and Lamonts to start with. Highly speculative that they did carry them in 1640's (the ones I have are much more modern I think) but they look good so I'm going to use them 8)
Hi Pierre,
FWIW, if you want to have a slight break from hodden grey, there is some evidence that the first Covenanter unit's sent to Ulster in early 1642 where supplied with red material for coats by the English Parliament. As Campbell of Lawers is one of these, they still may have been (at least partially) in red coats at Auldearn.
My hodden grey is all over the place from very cold blue-grey to very hot red-grey. The red and brown tones are probably the more accurate.
Since most of the known Covenanter flags were those captured a Dunbar (1650) I general match that colour scheme if possible but, as you say, use lots of saltires. I've taken to using a white (with various heraldry) flag for the colonel's standard since that seems to accord with what we know. All my standards are now detachable.
I make up clan banners with great abandon so I like your approach. :)
I'm sure you know this reference but just in case, the regimental wiki portion of BCW Project is very useful:
http://wiki.bcw-project.org/covenanter/start
Quote from: paulr on 11 May 2018, 10:11:25 PM
I've been tinkering with orders of battle for Cheriton with help from Mollinary and I am pretty sure I'm happy with version 9 :-B #:-S
Now on to sorting out coat colours and flags
I've finally settled on version 10 of the orders of battle #:-S
I've made good progress on coat colours and some progress on researching flags :) :!!
Our order has been cast and cut :) :) :) :)
It will soon be winging its way to the antipodes :!! :-w
Our order has been collected by the courier :)
From their tracking site, "We have your parcel and it's on its way to you"
Quote from: paulr on 19 May 2018, 02:09:31 AM
I've finally settled on version 10 of the orders of battle #:-S
I've made good progress on coat colours and some progress on researching flags :) :!!
Would you be soi kind as to share the uniform and, if possible, the flags :D ;) :)
Thank you
Paul might have some specific information about Cheriton (the action he is basing his forces on) but the BCW project wiki is a very good starting point for ECW uniforms and flags:
http://wiki.bcw-project.org/
For a detailed description of English and Scots ECW era flags try the PDF download in the first post in this thread:
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,16141.0.html
Cheers
Peter
Once I've pulled all the various bits of 'progress' together I'll happily share
That may unfortunately take a while...
Come on.....You haven't posted any photo's for at least two days, now. :P ;)
Cheers - Phil
Finishing off my AWI project, hopefully in time for a show in August, Call to Arms :!!
Preparing a WWI scenario to mark the centenary next month of the "Affair of Abu Tellul" in the Jordon Valley :!!
WWII Merchant ships in the painting queue, will have to check with Pierre the Shy how many I need to do for a show in August, Call to Arms :-\
Researching ECW uniforms and flags :!!
Waiting patiently for our ECW order :^o :^o :^o
It has been "30 May 2018 07:32 Warrington Your parcel has been collected from our Appleton depot and signed for by SLOUGH" for some time now :-w :-w :-w
It is interesting how expectations have changed, it used to take months for surface mail from the UK to NZ, now a few days delay in tracking updates is ~X(
Plotting the future of the Osmanli Empire of Malsama, 1689 :-\ :-\ :-\
Finding time to do an AAR of our last AWI game :!!
Apart from that, I'll get right onto more pictures Phil ;) ;D ;D
Really enjoying our multifaceted hobby :) :) :)
Quote from: paulr on 05 June 2018, 04:05:06 AM
WWII Merchant ships in the painting queue, will have to check with Pierre the Shy how many I need to do for a show in August, Call to Arms :-
You don't need any for CTA, already working on the convoy stuff :)
#:-S That's one thing that can move down my To Do list a little then ;)
I'm still looking forward to painting them :)
My 'uniform' research for this project continues :-B
Probably the biggest area of challenge is coat colours for units of Horse ~X(
Apart from a few well known exceptions there appears to be no information on coat colours
I have seen a couple of comments to the effect that unit coat colours were less common / obvious for Horse units due to troops who can afford to provide a horse providing their own clothes / the ubiquitous buff coat covering most of the coat. Any thoughts or feedback :-\
I also have a few specific questions about the Royalists at Cheriton (Parliament's questions after I've waded through the information I have for them)
Foot
Sir Thomas Blackwall - design on the flag
Colonel Stephen Hawkins / Sir Ralph Dutton - Flag colour & designs (White coats)
Colonel Matthew Appleyard /Sir Charles Vavasour - Flag colour & designs (Yellow coats)
One option for foot units where I don't know the flag design is to use the Colonel's (plain colour) and Lt-Colonel's (plain colour with cross of St George) but I would prefer to have 'busier' flags as they look more interesting
Horse
Coat, flag colour & design
Colonel Richard Manning / Colonel Charles Finch
Sir Henry Bard
Colonel Andrew Lindsey / Lyndsey
Sir Edmond Pierce
The Marquis of Hertford / William Seymour
Sir Allan Apsley
Sir Edward Ford
Coat & flag design
Colonel Thomas Howard (green flag) / Lord Andover
Sir Humphrey Bennet (red flag)
Sir Edward Waldegrave (white flag) / Colonel Nathaniel Heveningham
Colonel Gunter (black flag)
Sir Edward Stawell (white flag)
Sir William Clerke (yellow flag)
Colonel Dutton Fleetwood (red flag) / Sir William Campion
Coat colour
Colonel Richard Neville (red flag) / Earl of Caernarvon
Sir George Vaughan (blue flag)
Lord Hopton (red flag)
Lord John Stuart (red flag) / Earl of Cleveland
Sir Nicholas Crispe (white flag)
Any information appreciated
Hi Paul,
Doubt I can add anything, particularly since I don't do much south of the border. Maybe I can get the ball rolling however.
I use very generic harquibusers for much of the cavalry, always in full sleeved buff coats (various shades), lobster tailed pot helms (black or steel), many with front plates (usually steel to show up), a few with back plates (steel, ibid). These can be any unit, on any side, any time. Their cornets are highly generic but with various two-color hashed borders to give a period look.
I have been all over the place with infantry flags but for English and Anglo/Irish I use the Lt. Col. color (St. George cross in the canton) and then one of the captain's colors (same as Lt. Col. but with various numbers of devices - balls, stars, lozenges, etc).
Unless a unit is famous for its coats (Newcastle's whitecoats comes to mind) I don't worry over much. I do think that most men in a foot unit had the same color coat (blue, green, red) so similarity is good (realizing one year they might wear blue and the next, red). I also think, particularly early war, mufti is your friend. 😀
I figure Mollinary, et. al. will be along with more specific info on Cheriton.
Cannot help, unfortunately. Info on these subjects is notoriously patchy during the ECW, and this campaign is particularly obscure. As d'Guy says, going with full sleeved buff coats, of various hues, is a pretty good route to go down for horse regiments. So, I would go with whatever colours you think look good!
Thanks d_Guy & Mollinary, I suspected there wouldn't be much more information available but "no harm in asking"
It looks like Hawkins will have white flags and Appleyard yellow. They and Blackwall will have the Colonels and Lt-Colonels colours ;)
Buff coats it will be for the Horse with generic hash bordered cornets, at least I know the colour for a reasonable number of the regiments and devices for some :)
If anyone does happen to have any information on any of the units above it will be gratefully received
Quote from: paulr on 07 June 2018, 09:19:21 AM
My 'uniform' research for this project continues :-B
Probably the biggest area of challenge is coat colours for units of Horse ~X(
Apart from a few well known exceptions there appears to be no information on coat colours
I have seen a couple of comments to the effect that unit coat colours were less common / obvious for Horse units due to troops who can afford to provide a horse providing their own clothes / the ubiquitous buff coat covering most of the coat. Any thoughts or feedback :-
I also have a few specific questions about the Royalists at Cheriton (Parliament's questions after I've waded through the information I have for them)
Foot
Sir Thomas Blackwall - design on the flag
Colonel Stephen Hawkins / Sir Ralph Dutton - Flag colour & designs (White coats)
Colonel Matthew Appleyard /Sir Charles Vavasour - Flag colour & designs (Yellow coats)
One option for foot units where I don't know the flag design is to use the Colonel's (plain colour) and Lt-Colonel's (plain colour with cross of St George) but I would prefer to have 'busier' flags as they look more interesting
Horse
Coat, flag colour & design
Colonel Richard Manning / Colonel Charles Finch
Sir Henry Bard
Colonel Andrew Lindsey / Lyndsey
Sir Edmond Pierce
The Marquis of Hertford / William Seymour
Sir Allan Apsley
Sir Edward Ford
Coat & flag design
Colonel Thomas Howard (green flag) / Lord Andover
Sir Humphrey Bennet (red flag)
Sir Edward Waldegrave (white flag) / Colonel Nathaniel Heveningham
Colonel Gunter (black flag)
Sir Edward Stawell (white flag)
Sir William Clerke (yellow flag)
Colonel Dutton Fleetwood (red flag) / Sir William Campion
Coat colour
Colonel Richard Neville (red flag) / Earl of Caernarvon
Sir George Vaughan (blue flag)
Lord Hopton (red flag)
Lord John Stuart (red flag) / Earl of Cleveland
Sir Nicholas Crispe (white flag)
Any information appreciated
Don't know whether you have seen this but I Googled Sir Allan Apsleys standard and this came up.
http://wiki.bcw-project.org/start
It seems to have most units covered including a lot I have never heard of.
Thanks, BCW is one of the sources I've used (Thanks d_Guy) It has a lot of useful information
Their information for Sir Allan Apsley's Horse is
Flag Colour Unknown
Flag Design Unknown
They don't even mention coat colour for most Horse regiments ~X(
From my research -admittedly undertaken back in the 80's- horse did not necessarily wear the same coloured coat which may well have been hidden by the buff coat sleeves and/or a vambrace, at least on the rein arm.
Likewise, the only mounted troops I have ever come across with a specific coat colour are dragoons. With most cavalry, especially those that will look similar owing to the ubiquitous buff coat, the colour of the sash is probably more important for identification, plus the standards of the various troops within the regiment.
Well I am one happy gamer tonight - I'm getting all my Partizan Press ECW books back form a friend of mine who I have not seen for.....several years :) :) :) :)
I got a email from him completely out of the blue tonight suggesting a catch up since he found my contact details on an envelope that I wrote them on last time I saw him back in 2015 :o
In exchange I am going to be able to return a whole lot of 6mm V&B stuff plus terrain of his.
A great start to the weekend.
Now we just need our order from PM to arrive and our ECW project can get underway :-bd
That's great news, Peter. I think anyone who does W3K period should have access to these books. As you probably know they have all of Montrose's 1644-45 battles (omitting only Justice Mills). Occasionally some details are wrong here and there but does not distract from their usefulness. They include the only battle of the period fought here in North America so what's not to like. :)
Great news Peter :) :)
If I get to borrow any of them I promise to return them more promptly ;) ;D
I now have a few specific questions about the Parliamentarians at Cheriton, on the off chance
Foot
Flag design
Sir William Waller
Sir Arthur Hesilrigge
Major-General Christopher Potley
Colonel Ralph Weldon
Colonel Samuel Jones
Colonel Adam Cunningham
They're going to look a bit boring if they all have the plain Colonel's flag and Lt-Colonel's plain with St George in the canton flag, suggestions :-\
Horse
Coat colour, flag colour & design
Colonel Jonas Vandruske
Colonel Richard Norton
Colonel John Dalbier
Coat colour & flag design
Colonel George Thompson's London Regiment (Blue flag)
As discussed the buff coat will dominate for the horse
Dragoons
Coat colour
Sir William Waller's Regiment of Dragoons – I suspect yellow ;)
Any information appreciated
Quote from: d_Guy on 08 June 2018, 03:10:17 PM
That's great news, Peter. I think anyone who does W3K period should have access to these books. As you probably know they have all of Montrose's 1644-45 battles (omitting only Justice Mills). Occasionally some details are wrong here and there but does not distract from their usefulness. They include the only battle of the period fought here in North America so what's not to like. :)
Unfortunately these are not the 5 scenario books D Guy. The ones I have are the 2 Scots colours books and general books about the Royalist and Covenanter armies by Stuart Reid IIRC....could be something on English colours too......its been a while since I have seen them ;)
Still be very glad to see them all again. >:<
I've done a bit more research and found some of the info I was after :)
Updated list below
I now have a few specific questions about the Parliamentarians at Cheriton, on the off chance
Foot
Flag design
Sir William Waller
Sir Arthur Hesilrigge
Major-General Christopher Potley
Colonel Ralph Weldon
Colonel Samuel Jones
Colonel Adam Cunningham
They're going to look a bit boring if they all have the plain Colonel's flag and Lt-Colonel's plain with St George in the canton flag, suggestions :-\
All flag designs now identified :o :) :) :)
Horse
Coat colour, flag colour & design
Colonel Jonas Vandruske / Colonel Robert Burghill
Colonel Richard Norton
Colonel John Dalbier
Coat colour & flag design
Colonel George Thompson's London Regiment - one source says Blue cornet another gives an example of a Red cornet with a motto in gold :-/
also commanded by Colonels Richard Turner / Robert Thorpe / Edward Popham / George Starr
As discussed the buff coat will dominate for the horse
Dragoons
Coat colour
Sir William Waller's Regiment of Dragoons – I suspect yellow ;)
Any information appreciated
Quote from: paulr on 09 June 2018, 06:38:31 AM
I've done a bit more research and found some of the info I was after :)
Updated list below
I now have a few specific questions about the Parliamentarians at Cheriton, on the off chance
Foot
Flag design
Sir William Waller
Sir Arthur Hesilrigge
Major-General Christopher Potley
Colonel Ralph Weldon
Colonel Samuel Jones
Colonel Adam Cunningham
They're going to look a bit boring if they all have the plain Colonel's flag and Lt-Colonel's plain with St George in the canton flag, suggestions :-
All flag designs now identified :o :) :) :)
Horse
Coat colour, flag colour & design
Colonel Jonas Vandruske / Colonel Robert Burghill
Colonel Richard Norton
Colonel John Dalbier
Coat colour & flag design
Colonel George Thompson's London Regiment - one source says Blue cornet another gives an example of a Red cornet with a motto in gold :-/
also commanded by Colonels Richard Turner / Robert Thorpe / Edward Popham / George Starr
As discussed the buff coat will dominate for the horse
Dragoons
Coat colour
Sir William Waller's Regiment of Dragoons – I suspect yellow ;)
Any information appreciated
Well done Paul! Yes, as you show, all those foot regiments have flags and coat colours attributed on the BCW regimental wiki site. To add to your Colonels and Lt Colonels Flags a few Majors with a single pile why from the corner, and some simple devices, such as plates, might make sense?
Quote from: pierre the shy on 09 June 2018, 02:50:51 AM
Unfortunately these are not the 5 scenario books D Guy. The ones I have are the 2 Scots colours books and general books about the Royalist and Covenanter armies by Stuart Reid IIRC....could be something on English colours too......its been a while since I have seen them ;)
Still be very glad to see them all again. >:<
Dang! I now remember you previous post regarding the books. Should you ever have the opportunity to get them be aware that the Montrose scenarios are spread over all four volumes.
Quote from: d_Guy on 09 June 2018, 12:30:53 PM
Dang! I now remember you previous post regarding the books. Should you ever have the opportunity to get them be aware that the Montrose scenarios are spread over all four volumes.
Thanks D Guy. I found a breakdown of what battles are featured in each volume on the Cavalier website. At 17.50 pounds per book these are on my "would be nice to have" list as opposed to "must have" list.
I hope to catch up with my long lost friend today to get the books back in exchange for all the 6mm stuff and have a bit of a chinwag with him.
I know Pete C was looking at Scots ECW armies a while ago, which is why I lent him the books in the first place. Could well be another local FK&P player ;)
I got my books back a few days ago :) They have a lot of detail about the later Covenant regiments from the 1647 - 1651 period that will allow me to field units with accurate colours (I am going to show colonel's and one other colour per battalia) as well as those units which chased Montrose around Scotland in 1644/45.
My goal has been to be able to deploy enough units to be ultimately able to look at fighting larger scale actions like Dunbar, Preston and Worcester using the combined armies that Paul and I have ordered.
I've been pestering him every couple of days with a text asking "is it here yet", but our parcel is still evidently in transit.
:-w :-w ~X( :-w :-w ~X( :-w :-w
I've been doing some background work on labels and flags for this project
I have now sorted out all the foot flags, including a couple of units where I'm guessing the flag colour and have used Lt-Colonel's flags as the don't have any device ;)
On to the Dragoons and Horse next, I have quite a bit of info for the dragoons but for the horse there will be a lot of edged cornets, some of 'selected' colours ;)
Our order has arrived in NZ.... :) :)
Paul will be collecting it tomorrow.
Leon has, as we have come to expect, been most helpful over the delay in arrival of the parcel
He had even organised to begin recasting before the parcel had 'officially' been declared lost
I spotted that it had 'appeared' in Sydney, I think let him know before they had actually started recasting and before he had wasted too much time on claim forms
It has now cleared Customs in Wellington and is currently awaiting pickup by the local delivery courier :)
Hopefully it will be delivered to my work's mailroom for me to collect tomorrow
Breath held, fingers crossed! :)
The parcel sage continues ~X(
Despite the main shippers site saying the parcel had cleared Customs and it's location was Wellington at 11:12am the local courier's tracking has it having departed Auckland at 8:17pm :-/
I did think unusual for a parcel to clear Customs in Wellington
To add to the 'excitement' the main road from Auckland to Wellington is currently closed due to snow on the Desert Road in the center of the North Island =)
I'll have to see if it turns up at work tomorrow or Thursday :-w :-w :-w
Quote from: paulr on 26 June 2018, 09:40:59 AM
... to snow on the Desert Road ...
That part sentence makes my brain hurt.
Makes perfect sense to us locals ;D
The Desert Road passes through the Rangipo Desert, a 'barren desert-like' environment on the volcanic plateau in the centre of the north island
The parcel managed to avoid the snow and arrived in the courier's Wellington branch at 6:47 this morning :) :)
Intellectually, I get it, but its 32o here.
Quote from: fsn on 26 June 2018, 09:26:52 PM
Intellectually, I get it, but its 32o here.
Really :o
A lovely 1
o here, I had to de-ice my car this morning
So the package is in Wellington - yay
Still waiting for the local courier company to deliver the package to Paul though :-w :(
:-w :-w ~X( :-w :-w ~X(
So close but yet so far...
Don't talk to me about delayed packages. >:( >:(
Cheers - Phil
Finally had to breathe but still have fingers crossed.
28 Jun 18 06:42 Wellington Goods with delivery courier
The parcel is getting closer :!!
Quote from: paulr on 27 June 2018, 08:29:26 PM
28 Jun 18 06:42 Wellington Goods with delivery courier
The parcel is getting closer :!!
I suspect this is a tease, to distract attention from your lack of progress in painting the order which arrived two weeks ago! :- :- Once it has 'arrived' what are the odds on the first painted unit appearing within 48 hours? ;D ;D ;D ;)
Unusually for me I got something yesterday and started painting it today - will take more than 48 hours though.
It has arrived <:-P <:-P <:-P
I've got to finish the final 3 units of my AWI project before I can start painting these.
I will be spending a good part of today sorting through the parcel's contents :) :)
Quote from: mollinary on 27 June 2018, 09:12:27 PM
Once it has 'arrived' what are the odds on the first painted unit appearing within 48 hours? ;D ;D ;D ;)
Come on Mollinary be reasonable.... 72 hours at least :)
Besides I STILL haven't managed to track down suitable tartan paint for all the highlanders which are somewhere in the painting queue :o ;)
I'm just very glad its arrived and we can look forward to more FK&P game time when the units are ready.
Thanks to all who have commented and provided input on this project, particularly Mollinary who assisted with the development of my army lists
Now that the package has arrived I've set up a thread in the Painting Diaries to keep track of my progress
It can be found here http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,17480.msg258460.html#msg258460 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,17480.msg258460.html#msg258460)