So having enjoyed doing my 10mm Kings of War, travel sized, LotR inspired project, I'm thinking of doing some full sized LotR armies. As I start to think about Pelennor Field, BotFA, Helm's Deep and the Last Alliance let alone any first and second age battles, it's quickly becoming a lot of armies. Hopefully putting all this down to pixels and getting feedback will help focus things a bit.
I have some thoughts and questions about rules (I'm thinking Sword and Shield but maybe something else for multi player battles) and basing (maybe 50mm squares paired to make units?) but putting together the list and pics of the minis I'm eyeing has taken longer than I thought it would so I'll leave those questions for another day and another post and just get to listing what mini I'd need.
Obviously we need to start with the
Copplestone 10mm fantasy ranges.
From the KoW project I'm familiar with the bad guys and the dwarves
Orcs/Uruks/Trolls
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4485/36890572033_d9c944fde1_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4466/36890571813_f5d213dab3_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4478/36890571753_929aa357af_o_d.jpg)
Dwarves
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4444/36851458794_a788bd0ffd_o_d.jpg)
Copplestone also makes Rohirrim (mounted and infantry) and Gondorian soldiers just infantry
Rhohirim
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4486/36890571683_86cb4e5cc6_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4510/36890571913_43b2b7af72_o_d.jpg)
Gondor
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4476/36892076753_3fc77b048b_o_d.jpg)
Finally their 15mm Picts might make for some OK cave trolls
(https://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/images/img152.jpg)
These all look excellent and I love the style but I'll need some other stuff that Copplestone doesn't make. Let us turn to an obscure company called
Pentraken
We are going to need elves. High Elves and Wood Elves
Even though Pendraken's fantasy stuff is on the big side that should be OK since elves should be tall and I'm not planning on putting a lot on each base.
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3253/FAN-WEL1.jpg)
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3209/FAN-HEL1.jpg)
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3211/FAN-HEL3.jpg)
I have an idea that these cuirassiers could donate some heads to the elven cavalry to make some nobles or heavier cav
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4468/23708076458_fe4f5bd116_o_d.jpg)
We might need some Gondorian knights and/or some knights of Dol Amroth
I'm considering these for Knights of Dol Amroth. I didn't have much luck in finding good pics of Pendraken's other knights.
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/185/ELM1.jpg)
Isengard will need some Dunlending allies and I think that the Picts would be brilliant for them
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/171/PIC2.jpg)
Speaking of Isengard, these guys might be useful as hurons.
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3262/FAN-MON4.jpg)
I really wish that these hill dwarf archers in cloaks were still available.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2ox0ETqjU1U/UVc6E2WsYsI/AAAAAAAAA-4/vdI9-wYiRzw/s400/IMG_0155.JPG)
Finally the Army of the Dead could either be built from some skeletons or maybe some fleshed out soldiers. In any case they would be painted in pale ghostly colors.
I'm considering using the Late Imperial Romans
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/105/ARL2.jpg)
We also need some creatures and monsters so enter
Eureka
A mumakil
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0291/6817/products/400FAN10_342f97d2-2fc7-4260-a598-3270387cbeaf.jpeg?v=1384933216)
Eagles
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0291/6817/products/400FAN12_46f63868-fa03-4b1f-b9bb-258fc44486a3.jpeg?v=1384933226)
Ents
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0291/6817/products/400FAN18_6a6b4ae8-eae4-4aa2-ad61-315ab9f4ddd4.jpeg?v=1384933248)
Their elves are probably far too small to fit with Pendraken's but I think the guys on the left guys might make some nice Lossarach axe men. While the spearmen should be useful for something
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0291/6817/products/400FAN22_a18e7e81-248e-4e00-83b7-4d3dfc48e264.jpeg?v=1384933259)(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0291/6817/products/400FAN23_3d74b5f7-bf24-4593-a3fc-5f72ddbd56da.jpeg?v=1384933262)
Magister Militum
I think their Normans could fill in the gaps for Gondor's troops. For instance these knights
(https://www.magistermilitum.com/media/catalog/product/4/7/4709_4.jpg)
OPEN QUESTIONS:
Corsairs? (Ottomans?)
Harradrim? (Arabs? or Indians? Persians? Mongols?)
I think MM, Pendraken and maybe Old Glory could donate some historical models for these. Any opinions on how they might fit together scale wise?
CONCLUSION:
Well this should keep me busy for a while...
The copplestone ranges are very nice - but as you note don't have great coverage.
These heavily armoued knights I think would look odd with the rest of the figures - perhaps try EMM1
(http://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/177/EMM1.jpg)
I'd probably go for Pendraken Norman cavalry over MM, as the MM cavalry tends to be very small horse wise. MM infantry fits fine with Pendraken.
The Eureka elves will be tiny against the Pendraken ones - they are small against GW elves. The Eureka Mumakil is huge, and is a great model. As for Eagles you might want to look on eBay for the Warmaster High Elf ones, they are fairly common.
Kallistra also have some very large treemen if you want a very large Ent.
Using the Late Romans for the army of the dead is a great idea - they are very nice figures, and painted white, washed with green should look suitably ghostly.
Any opinion on how the Eureka elves would fit in with, say, Pendraken historical infantry?
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 12 October 2017, 02:30:24 AM
Any opinion on how the Eureka elves would fit in with, say, Pendraken historical infantry?
Probably fine - don't have any to hand to directly compare, but from what I recall they should be good height wise, might be a bit chunkier, but they are in cloaks.
If you can pick up the Eaglemoss LotR chess set Mumakil they are ideal (IMHO) but need to be crewed.
I picked my two up from EvilBay for less than a tenner each.
They are languishing in the farther reaches of my painting queue awaiting my decision on crew to use. Currently fancy the Islamic crossbowmen from TB Line for that job.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/61kAAOSwjvJZUBgB/$_1.JPG)
I use those Copplestone horsemen (and mounted archers in the second rank) as Alan mercenaries in my Byzantine army. Also some spearmen with kite shields as German crusaders. I wish they'd make more figures, and in more useful ranges.
Elves too small? Remember that a mainstay of their economy is repairing shoes, and the things are usually shown as larger than the elves repairing them.
Also useful.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 12 October 2017, 11:26:47 AM
I use those Copplestone horsemen (and mounted archers in the second rank) as Alan mercenaries in my Byzantine army. Also some spearmen with kite shields as German crusaders. I wish they'd make more figures, and in more useful ranges.
Yes, I agree that Copplestone should really make some elves. And dwarves with bows.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 12 October 2017, 10:36:11 AM
If you can pick up the Eaglemoss LotR chess set Mumakil they are ideal (IMHO) but need to be crewed.
I picked my two up from EvilBay for less than a tenner each.
They are languishing in the farther reaches of my painting queue awaiting my decision on crew to use. Currently fancy the Islamic crossbowmen from TB Line for that job.
[img-]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/61kAAOSwjvJZUBgB/$_1.JPG[/img]
I was just eyeing the TB Islamic figs. Somehow I had skipped over your recommendation or just got a subliminal hint because I just noticed you had the same idea.
Hi
Don't forget the TB Line Elephant is on the way and it is a bigly yuge creature and could be modified with extra tusks, etc. Also if you're handy the elephant out of those cheap bags of animals can be modified as well.
(http://theminiaturespage.com/news/pics/2011/mar/34146a.jpg)
(https://d3ncn4471p0zb7.cloudfront.net/cdn/276765/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/2/12754.jpg)
One thing to bear in mind is that there are disparities in the sizes of 10mm figures.
Pendraken fantasy, Copplestone, TB line and GW Warmaster figures are markedly larger than Pendraken historical, Magister Militum and Eureka, especially noticeable in cavalry. A picture of Magister Militum and Copplestone below:-
(http://underthemountainblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/under-the-mountain-31-october-2009-59191.jpg)
Pendraken historical, Copplestone and Pendraken fantasy
(http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15601.0;attach=6342;image)
More comparison pics at http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15601.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,15601.0.html)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Good news: Leon says that getting those hooded dwarf archers won't be a problem.
Bad news: Photobucket losing their minds makes it pretty hard to browse through these forums looking for basing ideas.
Put in some orders to Pendraken and Copplestone.
I was slightly worried about how quickly the total was rising until I remembered that I was getting several full armies and several allied contingents.
As I said, this will keep me busy for a while.
Look forward to seeing the progress. :)
Cheers - Phil
Just got some packages.
Maybe you live long enough to get your wish Phil. ;D
I've not been able to resist getting started on cleaning up minis and testing the basing schemes that are possible for each army. Originally I was torn as to whether I should do full Warband 100mmX50mm bases, go with the 100X40mm bases that scaling down the larger KoW horde bases would give. Also I was debating whether to split the bases in two for added flexibility. Having messed with the Warband bases, I think that I will just go with them, splitting the units in two would make for awkward placement of command elements especially for armies that come on strips. I don't really have a clear idea on what size or shape I should use for Generals, leaders, heroes, etc.
Anyway here is how I might do the High Elves, basically thin lines with organized looking archers using volley fire. The sword elves I'm imagining in a very loose order to give themselves room for slicing and dicing. I'm not sure what would be a good theme for the scenic bases themselves. Any ideas?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4558/38093757646_3b27a2897e_o_d.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4543/38117421762_ff5c4b84ff_o_d.jpg)
Also worked my way through the Rohirrim. Slighly beefier lines with the cavalry charging in wedges. Do people like the hollow wedge or the filled in wedges? The more scattered cavalry are the horse archers. I think the only way to the Rohirrim bases is to get a static grass applicator and just go crazy with it. Maybe put the infantry on top of a gentle crest.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4549/38148857921_140ee39d34_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4447/38148847231_7e2066931a_o_d.jpg)
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So far for rules I've been thinking of
- Sword and Spear Fantasy -- I've played these a couple times and like how the activation system keeps things interesting even after the lines have met. Also they are very low fantasy so, in my opinion, they are a good fit for LotR.
- Warband -- I've seen a set of LotR army lists for this but even they seem a bit high fantasy compared to my ideal.
- Hail Caesar -- Warlord's rules are pretty popular so maybe at a convention it would be easier to get going with HC than with S&S?
- Kings of War -- These are a fast and easy set of rules to play. I'd need to do a whole set of army lists to do LotR though and to handle the single units size for all units. Probably starting with KoW Historical.
Anyone have thoughts or rules that would fit?
Any awesome ideas for High Elf scenic bases?
Filled wedges, those look great.
And may I recommend the, with sour cream and chives, maybe chilli sauce too.
I a agree on both the filled wedges basing and the wedges with sour cream and chives, maybe definitely chilli sauce too :)
+1 for the filled wedges - makes the Rohorrim look very good :-bd
Like how you've done the high elf infantry basing too.....Been a while since I read LOTR but I always imagined high elves would fight in a looser formation like 100YW longbowmen rather than a sort of Byzantine Skutatoi regular heavy infantry as depicted in Peter Jackson's film version.
Not really a fantasy player but these should look very nice when completed.....please show when they are done.
May all your elves roll 6's :)
Liking those a lot!
Very atmospheric.
For basing I use Pollyfilla or similar to give an uneven surface to the terrain and to hide bases, once set I paint it black or brown, when that's dry add a layer of pva glue and dredge in fine sand (my current lot is intended for use in flower arranging and came from IKEA), flood the dried sand with brown in, when dry dry brush with a couple of successive coats of lighter brown, more pva glue and dredge in flock, flood that with green ink, let it dry then give a couple of drybrushes to tone down the green. If I add grit/ pebbles/ twigs/ clumps of grass I paint them too - can't stand the look of painted figures and dyed flock together.
I am off course a complete lunatic to go to that length, especially given my fairly average standard of painting but I do it all the same. Old dogs ... new tricks and all that.
Filled wedges it is then.
Quote from: pierre the shy on 04 November 2017, 02:00:53 AM
Not really a fantasy player but these should look very nice when completed.....please show when they are done
As I meant to type before. May you live long enough to see them done.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 04 November 2017, 03:22:25 PM
I am off course a complete lunatic to go to that length, especially given my fairly average standard of painting but I do it all the same. Old dogs ... new tricks and all that.
In the little time I've been paying attention to smaller scales, I've noticed that basing makes an even bigger difference than with 28mm minis. Add in these large scenic bases and I think it's worth the extra effort.
Messed around with the Dunlingdings
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4453/37459253634_40f4737f18_o_d.jpg)
Front Row left to right
Berserkers (Naked Gauls)
Elite warriors (Armored Gauls)
Warband (Mostly Picts with a few Gauls)
Second Row left to right
Skirmishers (Picts and Gauls)
Cavalry (Picts)
Warband
Skirmishers in back
I was going to say that this is about all I should need for what will probably always be an allied contingent, then I realized I haven't even got the archers out yet.
I ... might have too many miniatures ;D
Overall I think the Dunlingdings will be on some broken rock strewn ground.
Next up (after archers) is the army of the dead.
No such thing as too many figures!
These are all looking good - you have gone for this project in a big way!!
Rules wise:
Sword and Spear - don't know these, but from a quick read of reviews they sound interesting.
Hail Caesar - we played these extensively for fantasy games for several years. Our fantasy rules where available on the Hail Caesar Fantasy group. The command mechanism (which is linked to movement) will make or break these rules for you. You either like the stand still or zoom forward mechanism or loathe them.
Kings of War - almost the opposite of HC. KoW is almost chess like in its mechanisms. The only fight when you attack can make people love or hate the rules. They do give a quick fluid game.
Warband - not played these loads, but I do like several of the mechanisms. They are quite different mechanistically from a number of other rules.
The good news that all should work fine for LoTR, and all will work well with your basing - KoW does rather expect you to use different sized units, but you can just play with hordes if you want!
While I was cleaning up the Late Imperials paying special attention to mold lines on the flat shields (only Technoed my fingers a few times), I kind of came to the conclusion that I'm going to have to apply some battle damage to these guys' shields and swords to sell them as ghosts, aren't I?
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 05 November 2017, 02:17:56 AM
(only Technoed my fingers a few times),
Cheek ! ;)
Cheers - Phil
Yeah loadsa orcs
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4156/34517856405_9a2e94f23f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UAe38g)Goblin Group - 16 Units 03 (https://flic.kr/p/UAe38g) by Zippee Jerred (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/), on Flickr
crack on lad.
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 03 November 2017, 11:12:18 PM
- Warband -- I've seen a set of LotR army lists for this but even they seem a bit high fantasy compared to my ideal.
This may help? http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/warband-meets-lord-of-rings.html (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/warband-meets-lord-of-rings.html)
Ghosts standing ominously on a barrow
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4538/38133556316_c80056ce27_o_d.jpg)
or ghosts standing ominously on a barrow while other ghosts get to killing down below?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4460/38157515782_685154b20a_o_d.jpg)
Quote from: Chieftain on 05 November 2017, 10:30:50 AM
This may help? http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/warband-meets-lord-of-rings.html (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/warband-meets-lord-of-rings.html)
Where there's a whip, there's a way!
I really like these Wood Elf scupts. Should be way easier to paint than the high elves.
Basically everyone is skirmishing. Archers and cav:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4510/37484420794_f441d3bb46_o_d.jpg)
Spears and swords to the front!:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4583/24342466908_d0a12516f1_o_d.jpg)
I have some forest floor molds from Basius. Even though they are really for 28mm I might use them for these elves. giant Mallorn leaves or something.
I guess the other thing to do is put some of these wood elves on fallen logs.
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 05 November 2017, 03:37:39 PM
Ghosts standing ominously on a barrow
or ghosts standing ominously on a barrow while other ghosts get to killing down below?
For me, "Ghosts standing ominously on a barrow" look more ominous. :)
Note also, the barrow entrance should be framed with stones, not wood.
Ageee with both
Quote from: Chieftain on 05 November 2017, 08:02:10 PM
For me, "Ghosts standing ominously on a barrow" look more ominous. :)
Note also, the barrow entrance should be framed with stones, not wood.
On the ghosts - agreed!
on the barrow ... maybe it's a Wood Elf barrow :)
I, uh, think I might need, uh,
more orcs.
Here are the ordinary Copplestone orcs laid out on bases.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4579/37601900034_da91d127c1_o_d.jpg)
Just a bit patchy even on these 6 bases and could 6 bases be remotely enough?
I'm thinking of doing 3 types of orc bases.
- Snagas/lesser goblins being driven forward by whips
- Regular orcs in 4 rows with one standard per base.
- Elite orcs/half orcs/Uruk-hai Copplestone half orc in three ranks with 2 standards per base.
That should make each type of orc unit visually distinct and minimize confusion. Here is a close up of how I'm imagining the snaga bases:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4544/38262578786_169c072511_o_d.jpg)
Clubs will obviously be replaced with wire whips and a few gaps will have to be filled with loose orcs but it should work OK, I think.
Need for more orcs might have been slightly exaggerated.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4553/26707957579_a92f2ab638_o_d.jpg)
Warg riders with bows, Warg riders, Wargs, orc archers, uruk archers, uruks, uruk spearmen, cave trolls, trolls, oh my!
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 17 November 2017, 04:53:14 PM
Need for more orcs might have been slightly exaggerated.
I think you're probably right !! ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: lowlylowlycook on 17 November 2017, 04:53:14 PM
Need for more orcs might have been slightly exaggerated.
No I don't thinks so. you can never have enough Orcs.
Quote from: Orcs on 17 November 2017, 08:57:47 PM
No I don't thinks so. you can never have enough Orcs.
Well maybe one too many ;) ;D ;D
Messing about with base coats and washes for the Army of the Dead so I can hand those guys off to my nephew.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4578/38232290904_45f575393d_o_d.jpg)
I think that only the Mint Green Base coat made a difference and I don't think silver on the spear tips and shield bosses is an improvement.
I agree about the silver.
Cheers - Phil
I'd second that. I like the minty green ones best. ;D
I like this idea - simple but very effective.
Thinking of the look shown in the LOTR film, I wonder if they would
benefit from a highlight in light green ?
[Definitely lose the silver - starts to remove the really good ethereal
effect]
Phil
I was surprised by the silver. I expected a bit a a subtle effect but the was slid right off the silver.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4525/38938670762_0569f2a052_o_d.jpg)
L to R: Pale Olive with wash. Mint Green mini with drybrush of 1/2 MG 1/2 Ghost White. 1/2 MG 1/2 GW basecoat with watered down wash. Same with full strength wash.
Not really my thing but I like the third one perhaps with a very light dry brush (same colour as the second one)
This may be getting too complex for the quick simple approach you were looking for but I use the back of a 1" artisits brush to apply very light dry brushes with just one or two downward strokes
Yeah, it has to be simple since I'm going to ask my nephew to do them.
I did some ghosts for my undead army and I simply sprayed them white; then gave them a heavy wash with blue/green (not sure right now what GW calls it these days... can look it up if you want?) and then gave them a light white dry brushing. Works quite nice I must say.
Cheers,
Rob
Bought some Reaper minis to test usability for 10mm
(https://i.imgur.com/BTV9Aav.jpg)
Fell Beast
(https://i.imgur.com/qqW3hAJ.jpg)
Dragon
(https://i.imgur.com/uRb1BMt.jpg)
Balrog
Look a good fit, to me !! :)
Cheers - Phil
A balrog with wings?
(ducks for cover)
They look rather good (apart from the wings). ;)
"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
Suggests to me that Tolkein imagined them with wings ... at least while writing that particular line.
My own Balrog has black wings since they are described in a line just before the quote above as "wings of shadow"
Damn it Mike, I was going for the same quote!
previously the Balrog had entered the "large square chamber" of Mazarbul, at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm it "drew itself to a great height, and its wings spread from wall to wall" in what was a vast hall.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 30 March 2018, 12:46:36 PM
A balrog with wings?
Of course, silly, it's a girl.*
*Anyone recognising a Dark Crystal reference score 10 points and needs to re-examine their priorities.
Must admit....Though I can't specifically remember the book references....I've always pictured the Balrog as a winged beastie. :-\
From the quote Mike and Will have put, I guess I haven't lost it completely.
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: FierceKitty on 30 March 2018, 12:46:36 PM
A balrog with wings?
Are we calling Linda McCartney a Balrog ? ;D
Quote from: Ithoriel on 30 March 2018, 01:40:28 PM
"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
Suggests to me that Tolkein imagined them with wings ... at least while writing that particular line.
My own Balrog has black wings since they are described in a line just before the quote above as "wings of shadow"
And previously Tolkien says "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." Notice" LIKE two vast wings"!
This is probably one of the oldest arguments about Tolikien's writing, are Balrogs winged or not? I think it's up to each person to make their own interpretation.
To quote the greatest line of the greatest movie of all time*
Chaucer: Very well, it was allegorical.
Roland: We won't hold that against you. That's for each man to decide for himself
*subjecttopersonalpreference
Quote from: Orcs on 30 March 2018, 05:05:36 PM
Are we calling Linda McCartney a Balrog ? ;D
X_X Go and get you coat, Mark. (Dearie, dearie me.) ;D
Cheers - Phil