Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Blitzkrieg Commander => Topic started by: Leon on 08 May 2017, 11:15:01 PM



Title: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Leon on 08 May 2017, 11:15:01 PM
The previous BKC poll has now ended and the result was quite clearly in favour of a full reprint with 50% of the vote.  A pdf of the army lists was 2nd choice with 37%.

As a business, this was the preferred choice for ourselves as well.  We've thought long and hard about it over this past week, crunching the numbers repeatedly, and weighing up some other options, but this is the best decision for the long-term reputation and viability of the whole BKC family of rules.  Had it been just the army lists with issues and the rules were fine, or the lists were spot on but there were some errors in the text, then I think we could have sorted that out with an errata sheet for people to refer to.  With both lists and text having issues, then the whole rulebook isn't up to standard and we couldn't continue to sell them to people knowing those problems were there.

It's been mentioned in one or two threads but we're extremely disappointed that there still hasn't been any input from our author.  As the first few queries started to come in, some insight into his thinking or some information on his research into the army lists might have helped ease some of the initial concerns and alleviate the eventual surge of negative feeling towards the new rules.  As some people have said, there are some good ideas in this new edition, some of which might need some fine-tuning, but it's not all bad.  Our job now is to make those new bits work properly with the old.

So, what happens next?

The immediate job is to get to work on revising BKC-III into the rulebook we were all hoping for.  The army lists will be our starting point, reverting those back to BKC-II and then tweaking and editing them where necessary based on previous BKC feedback.  Second will be the scenarios which will also largely revert to BKC-II, unless anything comes up from our new team that requires a change/tweak.  And then from there we'll go through the actual rules of the book, page by page, doing one of three things:

- Leaving as is.
- Clarifying/amending to make it work better/properly.
- Reverting back to BKC-II.

I've mentioned the new team already, so I'll explain a bit more on that.  First off I want to thank everyone who has emailed, callled or messaged us offering their help and support with this, your response was overwhelming and we can't thank you all enough.  There were so many offers that there were simply too many to bring in to a 'rewrite' group but we will still need your help at some point.  

We've got a core group of people from the original BKC playtesting and feedback team, plus a couple of other people who were recommended by them.  This group will help us work through the editing process and put together our 'BKC-3.1', as it were.  Along the way though we will need more feedback and information on all of the points that have been discussed on the Forum here, so that's where the wider community comes in.  Some of the discussions have got a bit sidelined or distracted as further points come up, so it would be good to try and make those threads more concise where we can.  So if there's something that doesn't work, or you think needs fixing, then start a new thread in this main BKC section, with a thread title naming the area of the rules you're going to address, so that could be Visibility, or Special Abilities, or Movement.  Once you've got the thread started, we need the following points:

- What is the issue?
- What would be the fix?
- What other areas of the rules would this fix impact on?
- What questions does this issue/fix raise?

Now it's obviously going to be more complicated than that once we get into the discussion of each point, but it gives a good starting point for us to refer to at each stage of the rewrite to see what potentially needs doing.  We can't guarantee that every point/fix will be implemented but every one will be looked at and assessed by the rewrite team.

What does that mean for people who bought the rules?

Everyone who has bought a set of the rules will get a revised set of the rules.  If you bought online then we'll ship you a new copy, if you bought through Wargame Vault then you'll receive an automatic update by email.  For those who bought at Salute (we've got the numbers and some of the names) you will need to send us your copy and we will swap it for a new one.  I know this is a bit of extra hassle, but it's the only way to ensure that we're sending copies to people who definitely bought them.  Once this is done, it's important that any old copies are thrown away/destroyed, as we don't want to end up with two versions circulating around the wargames community and causing arguments and confusion.

How long will this take?

We want to get this done as quickly as possible, so we're setting ourselves a timescale of 2-3 months to fix everything.  Working with the BKC-III file will be the quickest method as all of the formatting and design work is already done.  Reverting the army lists is time-consuming but not too difficult to do.  It'll be the rules themselves where time and care will need to be taken to ensure we do this properly.

We know that people have spent good money on BKC and we want you to have the rules you paid for quickly.  We also don't want to lose too much momentum for BKC and get everything back on track.

We'll keep everyone updated as we progress and we'll get this sorted for you all as soon as we can.  I personally want to thank everyone who contacted me with their support and encouragement, it provided a real lift over these past couple of weeks.

 8)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: williamb on 08 May 2017, 11:49:57 PM
Leon,  thank you for taking the time and effort for this.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: old smokie on 09 May 2017, 12:11:43 AM
seconded   :-bd


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: mungosoton on 09 May 2017, 12:18:59 AM
Hi Leon

I bought my copy at Salute so if I have read this correct all I need do is to send it back to yourselves, with just my name and address on a piece of paper and you will send new rules once done.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Tarty on 09 May 2017, 12:25:23 AM
This is how it's done folks...take note ! Top shelf response to the problem. Everything I've heard about Pendraken is right here on show.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: T-Square on 09 May 2017, 02:37:53 AM
Good decision.  Now on to the hard work.  Wish you all the best in your efforts.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: paulr on 09 May 2017, 03:59:12 AM
Very well done that man =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: petercooman on 09 May 2017, 05:02:03 AM
Good luck on the rewrite! Will have a crunch through the book this afternoon, and see what I can cone up with in terms of spotted issues.

Here's to hoping this one turns out well for pendraken!!!

Just a  minor question, will the rules seek a middle ground or will we revert more to bkc II ? Just a case of knowing what issues  we should bring up. No use working out the details on some things if the whole section is reverted back to bkcII ;)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Fenton on 09 May 2017, 06:09:15 AM
Good luck with this Leon and take your time. I am positive a great  set of rules will appear when all is completed


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: SteveTheWargamer on 09 May 2017, 08:05:39 AM
Bravo! Customer service and responsiveness of the highest order I'd say..   :)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: toxicpixie on 09 May 2017, 08:12:47 AM
Good luck all :)



Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: sediment on 09 May 2017, 08:21:40 AM
Good news, thanks for the update and good luck with the revision/

Cheers, Andy


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Zbigniew on 09 May 2017, 08:40:57 AM
Good decision. Good luck!


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: mad lemmey on 09 May 2017, 08:48:21 AM
Hugs all.  m/


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: slugbalancer on 09 May 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Well done for coming to a speedy decision and probably the correct one.  I think naming them as BKC 3.1 may be an error as v3 is so badly tarnished.  Wouldn't it be good to skip straight to BKC4?


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Dr Dave on 09 May 2017, 09:04:36 AM
Well done. A tough decision, but the right one.  :D


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: barbarian on 09 May 2017, 10:45:46 AM
I quote myself from another thread :

"On a more general note, special rules named with no mention in the lists is really GWish to me : you need to go through the book to look at the abilities.

I'd rather have the special rules :
a) be the consequence of the type of unit ( i.e. All AT gun behave this way)
b) Be factored into the profile (i.e. this tank is good at busting other tanks so get one more die in his AT value)
c) be a special rule of this specific list (i.e. Commonwealth in North Africa are good at coordinating Arty fire so get a bonus doing so)
d) exceptionally be added as note on the profile of the unit. (i.e. the Katyushka sound is terrifying : the infantry unit targeted are automatically suppressed)

But case d) should be exceptional.

If you cannot characterise a unit other than using special rules, your basic rules are poorly designed."

I really think the focus should be on cutting the fat, trying to simplify (keeping the flavour of WWII obviously)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: ronan on 09 May 2017, 10:50:45 AM
Thank you Leon and all the Pendraken team !
 :)


Well done for coming to a speedy decision and probably the correct one.  I think naming them as BKC 3.1 may be an error as v3 is so badly tarnished.  Wouldn't it be good to skip straight to BKC4?

IMHO I like the name BKC 3.1
It shows the good work that'll be done, it's not just "another upgrade".


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Orcs on 09 May 2017, 11:03:47 AM
I would go with BKC4. Just to avoid confusion and also a completely different cover.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Smoking gun on 09 May 2017, 11:19:58 AM
It's great that Leon has made this brave decision and we'll all benefit from this, lets hope the new / revised version sells wells and restores the confidence in the Commander brand.

I do think it's important that whatever the new rules are called there's a completely new and distinctive cover so people are aware they're buying the new version.

Thank you and regards,

Martin


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: barbarian on 09 May 2017, 12:07:26 PM
Agree about the cover.
What I really liked in the BKCII book too was the pictures of the full armies inside : Gave me the will to purchase miniatures.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: sunjester on 09 May 2017, 12:53:58 PM
A brave decision, but one that seems to be popular. Good luck with the re-write.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: PFuentes on 09 May 2017, 01:16:32 PM
Thank you. You are great and honest.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: KeithS on 09 May 2017, 01:32:47 PM
I just wanted to wish you well in your re-working of the rules.  It is a great pity that you should need to do so, particularly after your optimism when you launched the rules.  I sincerely hope that the reworking is not too great a strain on yourselves and your company.  I also hope that the end result is that an even better set of rules than any of the predecessors incorporating the best features of all of them.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Leon on 09 May 2017, 02:12:50 PM
Thanks for the replies so far.

Just a  minor question, will the rules seek a middle ground or will we revert more to bkc II ? Just a case of knowing what issues  we should bring up. No use working out the details on some things if the whole section is reverted back to bkcII ;)

At this point I don't know, it'll depend on what the issues are for each section really.  As for the new threads, if people can point out anything/everything, then we can look at it.  If we change something as a result, great, but if we don't we'll have the thread open for people to look at and discuss further when the revised edition is done.

Well done for coming to a speedy decision and probably the correct one.  I think naming them as BKC 3.1 may be an error as v3 is so badly tarnished.  Wouldn't it be good to skip straight to BKC4?

I would go with BKC4. Just to avoid confusion and also a completely different cover.

I do think it's important that whatever the new rules are called there's a completely new and distinctive cover so people are aware they're buying the new version.

We don't have any plans on skipping to BKC-4 at this point, I think III is still fine.  We also won't be changing the cover massively as that will mean more expense on graphic design and we're already facing a 7000 bill for reprinting and shipping the replacements.  There will be some type of note on the cover to show that it's a revised version though.  That could be '3rd Edition+' or '3rd Edition - Revised' something along those lines.



Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: d_Guy on 09 May 2017, 03:04:02 PM
If only Microsoft were as responsive to users. Very well done!


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: quasar42 on 09 May 2017, 03:08:44 PM
Your decision is a testament to your high standards of quality and service.  All the best with the rewrite.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Itinerant Hobbyist on 09 May 2017, 03:18:30 PM
Bravo Leon and Team.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Sunray on 09 May 2017, 04:49:59 PM
Pendraken ?   +1 !!


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Orcs on 09 May 2017, 05:29:35 PM
  We also won't be changing the cover massively as that will mean more expense on graphic design and we're already facing a 7000 bill for reprinting and shipping the replacements. 

Well I certainly don't want to add to your costs. Could you change the colour of the typeface or spine without adding to the cost, just to differentiate it?


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: smallchild139 on 09 May 2017, 05:47:58 PM
Wow, great service.  If only all companies looked after their customers this way.


Mark


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: terry68 on 09 May 2017, 05:58:26 PM
Leon and all at Pendraken have shown how companies should respond! Bravo!

Hard work to come, but with good humour, steady resolve and a fanatical support base, easily done!!! ;)

As posted at the very beginning............KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON.

All the best.

Terry.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: neilpcegerton on 09 May 2017, 07:58:20 PM
Excellent customer service, just sorry you have all this hassle.

I bought copy at Salute, when do we send these back, now or closer to the time whn the replacement may be ready?

Neil


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: AJ at the Bank on 09 May 2017, 08:57:50 PM
Thank you Leon

I will endeavour to post rule issues as requested -
Note though - these may not always have suggested fixes.
Some simple issues will be easy to suggest a fix - E.g. re-do Hills).
Others will require playtesting to determine correct fix(es). E.g. Target priorities.
Nevertheless - I think it's important to post all issues in a hope that others suggest the best fix.

Adam


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Leon on 09 May 2017, 09:45:23 PM
I bought copy at Salute, when do we send these back, now or closer to the time whn the replacement may be ready?

Once the new printrun is ready we'll announce it here and then we can work out all of the logistics.  Some folks might prefer to pick up their new copies at a show somewhere as well, so we'll deal with that closer to the time.



Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Hastati on 10 May 2017, 08:18:05 AM
Leon,
I'm sure this has been a very difficult decision to take, and one that will adversely affect Pendraken financially.  I know of few, or any, other companies that would have decided to take this course of action.  You and the team should be commended, but above all, supported for having done so.  I will certainly be doing my part to ensure that I continue to buy your products to show that I support your decision and future endeavours.
Regards,
David


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: GW844 on 14 May 2017, 10:18:27 PM
Leon,

A hard but worthwhile decision I believe as your reputation will justifiably remain high.  I look forward to swapping over in due course.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Norm on 14 May 2017, 11:29:59 PM
Superb and responsive support - though it is obviously a regret that you are exposed to such a cost. 


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: abikapi2 on 16 May 2017, 11:25:54 PM
Bought at Wargamevault

I'll wait for the update.

Thank You
Stefano


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: henryhyde on 31 May 2017, 07:17:10 PM
A brave and bold response, Leon. But then, I would have expected nothing less. I'll pop my copy in the post to you.  =D>


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Dr Dave on 31 May 2017, 07:52:02 PM
Are folks returning their copies now, or waiting until BKC3+ is out.

What do we do?


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: paulr on 31 May 2017, 09:32:48 PM
Are folks returning their copies now, or waiting until BKC3+ is out.

What do we do?

Hi Dr Dave, Leon answered a similar question above

Once the new printrun is ready we'll announce it here and then we can work out all of the logistics.  Some folks might prefer to pick up their new copies at a show somewhere as well, so we'll deal with that closer to the time.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Dr Dave on 01 June 2017, 02:25:26 PM
Missed that

Ta  :)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Dave Fielder on 03 June 2017, 06:40:34 PM
If politicians behaved in this manner then we'd have an amazing democracy; admission of errors and an immediate plan to rectify! Customer service above and beyond, I trust it does not break Pendraken.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: nheather on 27 June 2017, 12:25:20 AM
Hi,

I already have BKII and I did look at BKIII but never got round to ordering.

I can see that there were some problems and it looks like Pendraken are being very responsible about it.

However, I see that a lot of the actions are "drop back to BKII" so I wonder how different BKIII will from BKII.

Is the upgrade worthwhile - can anyone summarise the differences that will remain?

Cheers,

Nigel


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Techno on 27 June 2017, 07:08:04 AM
Can't personally answer that, Nigel......But welcome to the forum.

Cheers - Phil.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: fsn on 27 June 2017, 07:58:16 AM
Dear Nigel, or may I call you Mr Heather?

Do you ever watch University Challenge? Do you ever hear one of those biochemical questions and think "well I didn't understand the question, let alone have any method of beginning to formulate an answer?" Me neither. However, what I know about BKC could be inscribed on the head of a pin and still leave plenty room for evangelical debate about angelic terpsichore.

 Techno and I function here merely as the warm up stooges. Techno has other worthy functions. He provides much merriment with his tales of self mutilation, he chides the wayward poster, and he occassionally makes a few wee men. I have no useful functions other than as the imperfection which makes the perfect truely wonderful - Marilyn Monroe's beauty spot, the disparity of leg length in de Vernette's Oedipus as he converses with the sphinx, Pendraken's insistence on kneeling and prone figures in every range.

So welcome, enjoy, and I'm sure someone will be along with a sensible answer.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: ianrs54 on 27 June 2017, 09:08:39 AM
FSN is a TOTAL OIK, ignore anything it writes.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: nheather on 27 June 2017, 10:06:52 AM
Okay ... bit weird.

So when BKCIII was announced I looked into buying it but could find little information about what had changed.  Particularly, the big question for me was

"Sure if you are new to BKC then clearly get BKCIII, but if you already have BKCII are the changes significant enough to warrant the outlay".

I couldn't find the answers then, couldn't find very much information about BKCIII at all, so I didn't buy.

So a few months have passed and I'm thinking "maybe there are some reviews out now" but what I actually find is that the BKCIII release hasn't gone well at all.

The goid news is that Pendraken seem to doing the responsible thing and addressing the problems with a new version.

So I read through the history, and I note that around many of the problems the resolution is to revert back to BKCII.

So now I'm wondering "still none the wiser about what is new in BKCIII but there do seem to be a number of changes that are going to be undone".

So more than ever my question is "if I have BKCII then what will the new BKCIII offer, is it significant improvements or just minor tweaks".

Cheers,

Nigel


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: Nick the Lemming on 27 June 2017, 12:38:05 PM
Since a revised third edition is in the works, I don;t think anyone can answer that yet. Changes are being made in BKC3.5, so no-one knows what the finished product will be like compared to BKC2 or BKC3 until the process of revision has been completed.


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: nheather on 27 June 2017, 05:39:30 PM
Since a revised third edition is in the works, I don;t think anyone can answer that yet. Changes are being made in BKC3.5, so no-one knows what the finished product will be like compared to BKC2 or BKC3 until the process of revision has been completed.

Thanks, appreciate that.  The thing for me is that I was never able to find what changes BKCIII made.  I am now aware of a number of problems BKCIII but still none of the good stuff.  And reading how the shortcomings the decision seems to be to revert back to BKCII - for example the armies and the scenarios.  I didn't get the impressions that there was much fundamentally wrong with the BKCIII rules, mostly the army lists and rules. 

So is there a comparison between the BKCII and BKCIII rules anywhere - just trying to find out whether they were significant or just little tweaks.

When Pendraken took over BKCII I asked whether they would be doing any army packs - was told not because they were working on BKCIII and they would do army packs for that.  Now that they say that the BKCIII army lists are going to revert back to BKCII does that mean we are going to see some army packs very soon because they will work with both BKCII and BKCIII.

Cheers,

Nigel


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: ronan on 27 June 2017, 06:54:36 PM

Hello and welcome,


(...) mostly the army lists and rules. 
(...)

You said it.
 ;)

( I think you should wait for the 3.5 or whatever new name. I was very happy to got the rules, but after several games, most of the things went bad. BUT there were good ideas sometimes. ie. new recce capacities.
With many "bad choices" ( planes, off board artillery, etc. )

As I wrote somewhere : the main system was too good to let it down with a bad release, and we know Pendraken's the best !
 :)


Title: Re: BKC-III Decision Reached - Please Read!
Post by: nheather on 27 June 2017, 08:31:14 PM
Hello and welcome,


You said it.
 ;)

( I think you should wait for the 3.5 or whatever new name. I was very happy to got the rules, but after several games, most of the things went bad. BUT there were good ideas sometimes. ie. new recce capacities.
With many "bad choices" ( planes, off board artillery, etc. )

As I wrote somewhere : the main system was too good to let it down with a bad release, and we know Pendraken's the best !
 :)

Of course I'll wait, hopefully when 3.1, or 3.5 or 4 (can't be 3.1 though because fractions in Roman Numerals are duodecimal - so BKCIIIS or BKCIV) comes out there will be a decent description so the benefits of BKCII can be understood.

Cheers,

Nigel