Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Blitzkrieg Commander IV => BKC-III => Topic started by: Leon on 19 March 2017, 09:54:45 PM

Poll
Question: Which German flag should be used for the German army lists in the new BKCIII rules?
Option 1: Iron Cross Emblem votes: 12
Option 2: Pre-War National Flag used until 1935 votes: 0
Option 3: Unofficial Flag with emblem votes: 1
Option 4: Made up Iron Cross Flag votes: 6
Option 5: Post-War Flag votes: 0
Title: Which German flag?
Post by: Leon on 19 March 2017, 09:54:45 PM
BKCIII will have the national flags of the various nations included in the army lists, but obviously this presents a slight problem with the German lists.  The Swastika clearly cannot be used, so which alternative option would people prefer?

1. Iron Cross Emblem - Not a flag as such, but still a recognisable emblem.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/German_Cross.svg/1200px-German_Cross.svg.png)

2. Pre-War National Flag used until 1935 - Dropped in 1935 in favour of the swastika design.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg/1024px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png)

3. Unofficial Flag with Emblem - A pre-war style, not used officially but still recognisable as Germany.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Flag_of_Germany_%28unoff%29.svg/1000px-Flag_of_Germany_%28unoff%29.svg.png)

4. Made up Iron Cross Flag - An alternative on the swastika flag but with an Iron Cross in its place instead.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bb/7e/4e/bb7e4ec412bdc1b6ec0fbb6f4d548f6c.jpg)

5. Post-War Flag - Not accurate for WWII but known as the modern day German flag.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_Germany.svg/1000px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png)

We've only got a couple of days to decide on this, so add your votes quickly!

8)
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: GrumpyOldMan on 19 March 2017, 10:40:10 PM
Hello Leon

I'd go for emblem 1 if you're covering German armies for WW1, Interwar and WW2.

If you're only looking at WW2 what about the Balkankreuz -
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Regulation_WW_II_Upperwing_Balkenkreuz.png/150px-Regulation_WW_II_Upperwing_Balkenkreuz.png)

Still recognisable.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Westmarcher on 19 March 2017, 10:47:35 PM
If flags were included in BKCII, what was the German flag?

And besides, why feel it necessary to include flags?

[Didn't vote but GrumpyOldMan's suggestion seems reasonable]
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: petercooman on 19 March 2017, 10:49:10 PM
+1 for grumpy from me.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: d_Guy on 19 March 2017, 10:52:01 PM
Not my gaming area but I like flags of all types. Agree also, the Balkankreuz is very recognizable
And not overtly political.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: paulr on 19 March 2017, 11:01:01 PM
+1 for Grumpy

Your 'made up' flag is very close to the German Naval flag of the time, with the offensive symbol replaced. It is just missing the 'Iron cross'  in the top left.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine#/media/File%3AWar_ensign_of_Germany_(1938-1945).svg (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine#/media/File%3AWar_ensign_of_Germany_(1938-1945).svg)
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 19 March 2017, 11:15:44 PM
Change my vote to Grumpy's please?
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Westmarcher on 19 March 2017, 11:16:27 PM
Perhaps worthwhile finding out what others are doing. For example (and re-inforcing opinion so far), the Balkankreuz is also used in the highly successful computer game, Combat Mission.This appears against the Axis force when you are asked to decide which side to choose before playing any mission.

(Link to the latest WW2 of the genre - Final Blitzkrieg - on their website below)

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=347&Itemid=609 (http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=347&Itemid=609)

[sorry, should point out that you need to download any of the free WW2 demo games to see what I'm saying. The link is only for Final Blitzkrieg, The Battle of the Bulge game]
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Ithoriel on 20 March 2017, 12:27:57 AM
Balkankreuz is what I'm used to in computer games so I think GOM's suggestion is a good one.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Kiwidave on 20 March 2017, 04:29:13 AM
 +1 for Grumpy / Balkankreuz
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: mollinary on 20 March 2017, 07:39:43 AM
+1 for Grumpy.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: fsn on 20 March 2017, 07:59:51 AM
Another vote for team Grumpy!
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Sandinista on 20 March 2017, 08:45:24 AM
As much as I hate the Nazis, why not use the flag they used?

Seems odd to me that we want to play with the model tanks of the Third Reich, but the flag is a no no. Our games represent people being killed but a wonky cross is beyond the pale, seems quite mad.

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 20 March 2017, 08:57:24 AM
Quote from: Sandinista on 20 March 2017, 08:45:24 AM
As much as I hate the Nazis, why not use the flag they used?

Seems odd to me that we want to play with the model tanks of the Third Reich, but the flag is a no no. Our games represent people being killed but a wonky cross is beyond the pale, seems quite mad.

Cheers
Ian
Is it because it's illegal in certain countries? And Leon wants multinational sales...
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Westmarcher on 20 March 2017, 09:24:09 AM
I knew you could get into trouble with the law in Germany. Have now found out that public displays of the swastika will also get you in trouble with the law in Austria (obvious, when you think of Germany), Hungary, Lithuania, Poland and Brazil.  :-B
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: FierceKitty on 20 March 2017, 11:37:25 AM
A Jewish friend realised he was whistling the Horst-Wessel Lied walking down the road in Berlin recently. He is most amused remembering the looks he got.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: mollinary on 20 March 2017, 12:17:16 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 20 March 2017, 11:37:25 AM
A Jewish friend realised he was whistling the Horst-Wessel Lied walking down the road in Berlin recently. He is most amused remembering the looks he got.

I am amazed he could find anyone who would recognise it.

Mollinary
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: cameronian on 20 March 2017, 12:58:20 PM
Prefer the 'Panzerlied' myself, Boys, too many boys ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JDkdc246QQ
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: FierceKitty on 20 March 2017, 01:00:15 PM
Make something illegal, and it acquires a mystique. The same with murder. Look at arson. I mean to say, who of us can honestly say that he hasn't, at one time or another, set fire to some great public building?....

Though I suppose in Germany the rules may be a bit different.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: d_Guy on 20 March 2017, 02:37:02 PM
As you know we have a similar problem with the Battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
It has been co-opted by many groups in many ways. As an Adult I have mixed feelings about it.
As Kitty says, to proscribe anything only empowers it.

As an amateur (very) historian - nothing in history should be unmentionable.

Leon had a commercial consideration and has made the logical choice.

Incidently for a sixteen year old boy. The Nazis had great uniforms, songs, and symbols - that was the point - after all  who are the soldiers,
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: OldenBUA on 20 March 2017, 05:13:22 PM
Another vote for Grumpy.

But please note it's called a Balkenkreuz.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: KTravlos on 20 March 2017, 06:56:17 PM
beyond the moral issues, the commercial issue is serious. German customcs have been known to refuse entry to boardgames with Nazi symbols. Pendraken would lose money.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: SV52 on 20 March 2017, 07:48:52 PM
Presumably the real bad actors, the SS, will still get their Sig runes?  Wanna ban something...
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Sandinista on 21 March 2017, 12:59:40 AM
Commercial considerations make sense, I'd overlooked that side of it.

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: PFuentes on 03 May 2017, 07:13:27 PM
Today I recieved my copy and I noticed an issue with the Spanish flag. You used the monarchic flag, adopted in 1977 after Franco's death. I would be more accurate to use the fascist flag adopted officially after the SCW or if you want to avoid political issues as you made with the german flag, a the yellow and red flag with no simbols.

I really like the collors and desig of the army lists section, congrats! ;)
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Panzer-Kalle on 17 May 2017, 08:55:12 PM
Flag 3 Unofficial flag with emblem a pre-war style not used offically but still recognisable as Germay!

Just to say it- this is the official ministration flag of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland to be found today at every  federal officebuilding!   ;D

Cheers Kalle
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 18 May 2017, 07:52:56 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 May 2017, 07:57:51 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 20 March 2017, 01:00:15 PM
Make something illegal, and it acquires a mystique. The same with murder. Look at arson. I mean to say, who of us can honestly say that he hasn't, at one time or another, set fire to some great public building?....

Stop quoting Monty Python at ME....

IanS
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Orcs on 18 May 2017, 09:32:21 AM
Quote from: Sandinista on 20 March 2017, 08:45:24 AM
As much as I hate the Nazis, why not use the flag they used?

Seems odd to me that we want to play with the model tanks of the Third Reich, but the flag is a no no. Our games represent people being killed but a wonky cross is beyond the pale, seems quite mad.

Cheers
Ian

I totally agree. The swastika was a religious symbol taken by the Third Reich.  I am fairly certain its still used in its original form for some Indian Religions.

This political correctness really annoys me.  Its what happened historically.  

Surely if you can't have a swastika you cant wear stripy clothes as that's what they dressed the inmates of the concentration camps in.  


But if we can't have the real thing then the Balkenkruz
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Techno on 18 May 2017, 10:34:33 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong.....Which I probably am.  :-[

But I thought the 'arms' on the original 'religious' swastika went in the opposite direction to the Nazi one.  :-\

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 May 2017, 10:44:01 AM
Strange - but for once you are correct. The Finnish one did as well. We cant use the 33-45 German flag because it's illegal in FGR and Austria.

IanS
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Techno on 18 May 2017, 11:29:25 AM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 18 May 2017, 10:44:01 AM
Strange - but for once you are correct. IanS

I nearly fainted !

Me......Something 'historical' right ?

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: fred. on 18 May 2017, 12:27:35 PM
The problem with putting the swastika on books or models, is that it immediately makes them illegal in Germany. So its not political correctness its about not shutting yourself out of a market due to their laws.

Yes there is a line between covering something up, and pretending it didn't happen. But my understanding is that the German law is to cover specific symbols that had the potential to act as rallying points for reformed Nazi groups. Of course all they have done is create variants that aren't covered in the law.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Schlesien on 18 May 2017, 07:09:53 PM
+1 for Grumpy.  Woops, old March poll.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 19 May 2017, 08:45:57 AM
Quote from: Techno on 18 May 2017, 11:29:25 AM
Something 'historical' right ?

I know - I've seen your sculpts  :D :D :D ;)

IanS
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Techno on 19 May 2017, 08:48:42 AM
 :P  ;D ;D ;D

Cheers - Phil.
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Westmarcher on 19 May 2017, 09:44:56 AM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 18 May 2017, 10:44:01 AM
Strange - but for once you are correct. The Finnish one did as well.

IanS

Don't know if he is (sorry, Phil).  :P

Fondly recalling my visit to the Carlsberg brewery in Denmark in the 70's, there were four stone elephants with swastikas at the main gate which pre-date the Nazi party and have the arms pointing in the same direction. I've always harboured a certain yearning to go back there (they had free samples at the end of the tour!  =P~ ) but, alas, I've just read that the original brewery closed in 2008.  :'(

http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/elephant-gate (http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/elephant-gate)   
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 19 May 2017, 10:00:37 AM
Where the Elephants pink ?
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: mollinary on 19 May 2017, 11:32:53 AM
It occurs in both forms from the earliest times, and pretty well world wide, from Japan and India to Western Europe and Ancient Greece and Rome, also (I think) Norse and Celtic art.

Mollinary
Title: Re: Which German flag?
Post by: Westmarcher on 19 May 2017, 07:18:56 PM
Quote from: ianrs54 on 19 May 2017, 10:00:37 AM
Where the Elephants pink ?

Where are elephants pink?

I didn't wish to get too close to investigate in case I was trampled by a very indignant pachyderm.


p.s. I knew you meant 'were' - answer is unfortunately 'no,' because I was under age at the time and so compelled to behave myself (and it was 1969 and not the seventies as first recalled).  ;)