Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Batreps => Topic started by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 06:37:12 PM

Title: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 06:37:12 PM
A really fun club game we played last night.

After 2 hours of serious dice rolling plus lots of banter it finished up a minor Bourbon Victory after the Allies (attacking) failed to break the centre of the French line.  

There was some really brutal action on both flanks. On the French left the village and fortifications changed hands a number of times before the Irish Wild Geese finally pushed the Allies out of the village having themselves lost it earlier in the game.

On the French right the outnumbered French and Bavarian cavalry just about fought the Allies to a stand still. With both divisions being broken by the final turn.

It was a shame we ran out of time as another couple of turns may have seen things turn out differently in the centre as both main bodies only came into contact on the last couple of turns of the game.

We've booked a table at Pendraken's Battleground show in November and will be doing a WSS game on the day so pop over if you are there and say hi

French deployed on the hills and in the villages on left of the first image below. Allies deployed on the right of the image and had to cross the river before advancing on the French line

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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: oldblindjohn on 15 September 2016, 07:28:57 PM
What rules did you use?
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fred. on 15 September 2016, 07:58:17 PM
Great looking armies - loads and loads of troops!!

Excellent stuff.

Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: mollinary on 15 September 2016, 08:03:21 PM
Looks fabulous, and those deepcut designs mats really do the business. Congratulations"

Mollinary
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: ronan on 15 September 2016, 08:06:21 PM
Wonderful !




Quote from: oldblindjohn on 15 September 2016, 07:28:57 PM
What rules did you use?

I'd also like to know .
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Steve J on 15 September 2016, 08:26:58 PM
Lovely looking figures, terrain and game 8)
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: paulr on 15 September 2016, 08:57:08 PM
Nice looking game :-bd =D> :-bd

Given the French deployment the river appears to have done little except delay the Allies. Not having it might have got the main bodies into action a turn or two earlier. But for all I know the French might have had the option of contesting the crossing :-\
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: oldblindjohn on 15 September 2016, 07:28:57 PM
What rules did you use?

We use black powder rules which work quite well for this period.


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 09:16:49 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 15 September 2016, 08:03:21 PM
Looks fabulous, and those deepcut designs mats really do the business. Congratulations"

Mollinary

The deep cut mats are superb and really do enhance the look of a game over the standard green games workshop ones we use to use

We have the normal mats but a chap at our club has just got the mouse mat version which are slightly better as they don't crumple or move at all


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 09:19:55 PM
Quote from: paulr on 15 September 2016, 08:57:08 PM
Nice looking game :-bd =D> :-bd

Given the French deployment the river appears to have done little except delay the Allies. Not having it might have got the main bodies into action a turn or two earlier. But for all I know the French might have had the option of contesting the crossing :-\

The game was a variant on the Blenheim scenario n the last argument of kings book. We doubled the forces on both sides though as we have a fair bit of Stuff 😀

The French centre played a very coy game and waited for the Allies to attack


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Title: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 15 September 2016, 09:25:27 PM
Quote from: fred. on 15 September 2016, 07:58:17 PMGreat looking armies - loads and loads of troops!!

Excellent stuff.

We do have a fair bit of stuff 😀 we love the pendraken figures and they are very easy to paint for this period.

5 of us collect for this period which helps as well. I think we now have about 40 battalions per side, around 25 cavalry regiments plus assorted guns etc. We are still collecting as well 😀

As we play black powder we try to ensure each player has 2-3 divisions so if you fail your command move with one you at least get a chance to move something else


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Last Hussar on 15 September 2016, 11:08:57 PM
There appears to be a female in the officers mess.  Or is that Gerald, the rum fellow who spent too long in the sun in The Sudan?
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Ithoriel on 15 September 2016, 11:47:20 PM
Quote from: Last Hussar on 15 September 2016, 11:08:57 PM
There appears to be a female in the officers mess.  Or is that Gerald, the rum fellow who spent too long in the sun in The Sudan?

Is that considered unusual in this day and age?

Roughly a third of my current gaming companions/ opponents are female.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Sandinista on 16 September 2016, 06:44:11 AM
That looks great, I like big games  :D

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: FierceKitty on 16 September 2016, 06:53:27 AM
That looks like what I'd call a wargame. :)
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Bodvoc on 16 September 2016, 06:55:02 AM
That is a seriously good looking game.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 16 September 2016, 07:46:11 AM
What a superb looking game, seriously cool.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fsn on 16 September 2016, 07:47:42 AM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 15 September 2016, 11:47:20 PM
Is that considered unusual in this day and age?

Roughly a third of my current gaming companions/ opponents are female.
Really? That's encouraging. Wonder if it's just in your area? Be nice to break the middle aged male ... I was going to say stereotype, but is it a stereotype if it's true?

Bit of brightness to start my day.

Whatever happened to Marie?
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Orcs on 16 September 2016, 09:40:32 AM
Lovely looking game.  What make are the buildings?

Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Techno on 16 September 2016, 10:03:29 AM
Totally agree, FK.

That DOES look rather special !  :-bd
I'm most impressed.....and not the tiniest bit jealous !  :^o :^o :^o :^o

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fred. on 16 September 2016, 10:38:27 AM
Buildings look to be Total Battle Miniatures - available through Pendraken
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Norm on 16 September 2016, 11:22:24 AM
Every time I rationalise why I should not do big bases, I see something like your game and want to do them. have you come across any disadvantages during your play with BP that would argue against the big base? You have a fine looking set of armies.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Westmarcher on 16 September 2016, 01:08:34 PM
Great game - quite spectacular, in fact!  :-bd

Quote from: Norm on 16 September 2016, 11:22:24 AM
Every time I rationalise why I should not do big bases, I see something like your game and want to do them. have you come across any disadvantages during your play with BP that would argue against the big base? You have a fine looking set of armies.

My question is, if you only have one base per unit which is, say, in Line, how do you represent other formations? On the one hand, I suppose, you don't have to worry about formation changes(!) which, in one sense, may simplify the game but, on the other hand, this might be slightly restrictive regarding movement because you are always subject to what you can and can't do when in Line.  To represent different formations, it seems to me you will need specialist markers. In photos 16 and 20, presumably the black marker represents disorder? If your units consist of multiple bases, you won't need such a marker - you simply re-arrange the bases in a disordered manner.   I used to have 'battalion' bases for Maurice (2 per brigade) but after a few games using other rule sets I missed not having the flexibility to form my units in March Column so that they would fit and look better on a road. I also thought less bases would mean faster shifting of units on the table but actually I haven't noticed any difference since I changed to 4 bases per unit. 4 bases enables me to represent Line, Attack Column, Square, March Column, Skirmish Order and Disorder without markers. So, personally, I recommend you don't do big bases.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Ithoriel on 16 September 2016, 03:57:48 PM
I guess it depends what level your game represents.

For me a base should represent the smallest unit that would manoeuvre independently in a battle of whatever size is being represented. So individual figures for skirmish but battalion or even brigade for large encounters.

If I'm a general I don't care what formation a unit is in (and the rules shouldn't either IMHO) that's what majors and colonels (and captains if things are going badly!) are for. So I don't feel the need to base things to represent that.

For me it's about focussing the player on the decisions made by commanders of the rank they are portraying.

It may or may not save much time during the game but my experience is that it saves a great deal in set up and tidy up.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Zippee on 16 September 2016, 05:43:32 PM
Lovely looking game.

I think the base question is a bit moot for WSS - any troops in march formation should be well back from the table and squares, columns and such are decades into the future. besides I likes large unit bases - assuming the rules work with them. That said just about the only troops that aren't on large units bases for me (bar skirmishing singles) are my Napoleonics, precisely because I have a nerdy OCD need to change formation. . . although Blucher and BBB are breaking me of that compulsion  ;D
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Westmarcher on 16 September 2016, 07:28:16 PM
Fair comment, guys. Bottom line is, each to their own. As Mike says, its down to what level you are trying to represent so, if you get it into your head later that you wish to war-game at a lower level (or try a different rule set), I would advocate multiple bases as these give me more flexibility than that big base look I used to think was so cool.   :)

P.S. By the way, I meant to say Might & Reason for the 'battalion' bases' - I now use my 4 base units for Maurice - knew it was one of Sam Mustafa's rules!  :-[ And Zippee - I think I'm OCD too!   :-[ 
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Zippee on 16 September 2016, 08:18:09 PM
Quote from: Westmarcher on 16 September 2016, 07:28:16 PMBy the way, I meant to say Might & Reason for the 'battalion' bases' - I now use my 4 base units for Maurice - knew it was one of Sam Mustafa's rules!  :-[ And Zippee - I think I'm OCD too! [/size]  :-[ 

You're right I forgot I also have my SYW/FIW stuff on 20mm squares so that they work with Maurice as well as BP and HoW

My Napoleonics are either (6mm) based for LFS or (10mm) for Lasalle

There's a strong Mustafa thread here - we should blame him, yeah it's Sam's fault we're not using big bases, that's right (err Grande Armee; Blucher? no that doesn't work - dammit!)

[I thought most people used two 60mm x 30mm bases for AoR units?]
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: jchaos79 on 16 September 2016, 08:30:04 PM
such a display of color! well done
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: PERKY on 16 September 2016, 09:31:00 PM
Hi Guys ,
                We did think long and hard on base sizes. The outcome was when units got to the point of trading punches (because of the new introduction of the flintlock and socket bayonet . Fire power became a major thought in most military thinkers). The line was the preferred fighting formation. As already noted attack columns,skirmish/light infantry where years away. Infantry regiments where confident if handled well to drive off any approaching horse with controlled musketry so a square was only used if the battalion was totally unsupported in the open. Cavalry again use the line to attack but most attacked at a fast trot firing pistols/carbines before closing (French and most continental horse). British and Dutch cold steel only.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Zippee on 16 September 2016, 10:45:34 PM
I'm not prepared to accept this until I hear corroborative evidence from PINKY

one can only hope he's not in a shallow grave / indiscriminate BBQ
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 10:45:54 PM
Quote from: Techno on 16 September 2016, 10:03:29 AM
Totally agree, FK.

That DOES look rather special !  :-bd
I'm most impressed.....and not the tiniest bit jealous !  :^o :^o :^o :^o

Cheers - Phil

Cheers Phil. We're quite chuffed as well as we only started building the armies about 18 months ago. We love big multi player games at our club and always have good fun which is the main reason afterall that we game


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Title: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 10:55:34 PM
Quote from: Zippee on 16 September 2016, 08:18:09 PMYou're right I forgot I also have my SYW/FIW stuff on 20mm squares so that they work with Maurice as well as BP and HoW

My Napoleonics are either (6mm) based for LFS or (10mm) for Lasalle

There's a strong Mustafa thread here - we should blame him, yeah it's Sam's fault we're not using big bases, that's right (err Grande Armee; Blucher? no that doesn't work - dammit!)

[I thought most people used two 60mm x 30mm bases for AoR units?]

We play lots of different games at our club using lots of different scales and basing methods. Each to there own is our view.

6mm napoleonic  volley and bayonet rules using 3" squares as per the rules

10mm WSS. Single base units representing linear warfare of the period

15mm Napoleonic using Shako rules. 3 bases per unit so we can deploy in line, column or square. Cavalry regiments in 4 bases for line or column

15mm FPW using a variant of Shako. 2 base units

28mm ACW. 4 figures per base and 5-7 bases per unit

28mm Ancients. We use Hail Caesar rules but impetus base sizes so we don't have to faff with individual figures etc


No matter which scale or rules er or period we make sure we have lots of units on the table and it looks impressive 😀

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Title: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: jchaos79 on 16 September 2016, 08:30:04 PMsuch a display of color! well done

That is one of the reasons we love this period. Lots of colourful units and big flags 😀


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 10:59:01 PM
Quote from: Zippee on 16 September 2016, 10:45:34 PM
I'm not prepared to accept this until I hear corroborative evidence from PINKY

one can only hope he's not in a shallow grave / indiscriminate BBQ


??????????


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 11:01:05 PM
Quote from: Westmarcher on 16 September 2016, 01:08:34 PM
Great game - quite spectacular, in fact!  :-bd

My question is, if you only have one base per unit which is, say, in Line, how do you represent other formations? On the one hand, I suppose, you don't have to worry about formation changes(!) which, in one sense, may simplify the game but, on the other hand, this might be slightly restrictive regarding movement because you are always subject to what you can and can't do when in Line.  To represent different formations, it seems to me you will need specialist markers. In photos 16 and 20, presumably the black marker represents disorder? If your units consist of multiple bases, you won't need such a marker - you simply re-arrange the bases in a disordered manner.   I used to have 'battalion' bases for Maurice (2 per brigade) but after a few games using other rule sets I missed not having the flexibility to form my units in March Column so that they would fit and look better on a road. I also thought less bases would mean faster shifting of units on the table but actually I haven't noticed any difference since I changed to 4 bases per unit. 4 bases enables me to represent Line, Attack Column, Square, March Column, Skirmish Order and Disorder without markers. So, personally, I recommend you don't do big bases.

Black markers are disorders- well spotted


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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: PERKY on 16 September 2016, 11:12:15 PM
Ahhh Zippee !!!! Showing your age  ;). Alas Pinky showed no interest in war gaming and retired to a temple in deepest Tibet  :)

Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: paulr on 17 September 2016, 01:18:01 AM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 16 September 2016, 03:57:48 PM
I guess it depends what level your game represents.

For me a base should represent the smallest unit that would manoeuvre independently in a battle of whatever size is being represented. So individual figures for skirmish but battalion or even brigade for large encounters.

If I'm a general I don't care what formation a unit is in (and the rules shouldn't either IMHO) that's what majors and colonels (and captains if things are going badly!) are for. So I don't feel the need to base things to represent that.

For me it's about focussing the player on the decisions made by commanders of the rank they are portraying.

It may or may not save much time during the game but my experience is that it saves a great deal in set up and tidy up.

Well said that man =D> =D>
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Glorfindel on 17 September 2016, 09:05:26 AM
This is a seriously inspirational game.   Even close up, the figures
and terrain really are the business.   Well done.   And, there's so
much of it !

I have used single unit bases for 6mm Great Northern War games
using Black Powder before and it works fine.   Scaled up to 10mm,
the bases do look magnificent.   So much easier to maneouvre.

Right, off to have a look at some WSS figures !


Phil
Title: WSS Game
Post by: Shutuphippie on 17 September 2016, 10:58:45 AM
Quote from: Glorfindel on 17 September 2016, 09:05:26 AMThis is a seriously inspirational game.   Even close up, the figures
and terrain really are the business.   Well done.   And, there's so
much of it !

I have used single unit bases for 6mm Great Northern War games
using Black Powder before and it works fine.   Scaled up to 10mm,
the bases do look magnificent.   So much easier to maneouvre.

Right, off to have a look at some WSS figures !


Phil

Thanks Phil. The WSS figures are very good from pendraken. We have mixed in some of the LOA ones as well as there is a bit more choice in the range especially the cavalry and the LOA French Dragoons are simply awesome

All the figures on the table were pendraken ones. The building were total battle miniatures purchases from pendraken.

Our Spanish player was on holiday on Wednesday as well so we were missing his 18 battalions of infantry plus Cav and guns etc! 😀

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Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Last Hussar on 18 September 2016, 06:24:11 AM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 15 September 2016, 11:47:20 PM
Is that considered unusual in this day and age?

Roughly a third of my current gaming companions/ opponents are female.

I know very few women gamers. There seems to be more in RPG, and more in LARP/reenactment.  One re-enactor I knew was musing about whether to do her dissertation on a link between maple autism and the male dominated wargaming (early 90s) with reference to the sort of obsessiveness wargamers have.  I'll happily get trashed by anyone, regardless of plumbing.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: FierceKitty on 18 September 2016, 06:36:30 AM
Mine is very pleased with herself for taking Oda Nobunaga to the cleaners yesterday. Hmmph!
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Techno on 18 September 2016, 07:31:54 AM
Quote from: PERKY on 16 September 2016, 11:12:15 PM
Ahhh Zippee !!!! Showing your age  ;). Alas Pinky showed no interest in war gaming and retired to a temple in deepest Tibet  :)

As we missed your first post earlier, Perky...
A very warm welcome to the forum.  :-h

Quote from: Shutuphippie on 16 September 2016, 10:59:01 PM

??????????

Pinky & Perky were two puppet pigs back in the days of black & white TV, Hippie......Not that I remember them at all.  ;)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Norm on 18 September 2016, 08:23:23 AM
Pinky and perky ... Let's twist again!

You Tube link - https://youtu.be/Xsr_k1wKSWI

Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Norm on 18 September 2016, 08:27:09 AM
I am holding back on my decision to convert my three large test 80mm ACW bases back to join their 40mm brethren. I really like the look of the WSS game. I think I can get away with ACW on big singles, I am less sure about napoleonics.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fsn on 18 September 2016, 09:08:46 AM
What ho, Perky!




*suddenly feels guilty about bacon sarnie in other hand whilst typing*


Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: cameronian on 18 September 2016, 10:20:25 AM
Well for what it's worth I hate big bases. It really pains me to see beautifully painted figures on lovingly crafted scenic bases resting on a village or a road or a wall, at 45degs. It looks awful. Why can't you break the big bases up into smaller units, surely you can consider them as one base for the purposes of your rules but still obtain the aesthetic advantage of using smaller pieces. I play FOB 2 (1866/1870) variant, one base is the equivalent of 3 integrity points, normal bases are substituted for casualty bases, loss of formation integrity will be represented by diminishing the size of band, one figure at a time !!!
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fsn on 18 September 2016, 10:43:58 AM
I'm accumulating Pendraken Napoleonics at the moment, but I'm planning for a brigade level game with about 60 figures per battalion.  A British bttn would be 10 bases. This will allow me to show line, square and column.

Also looking at the rules to see how long it would take to change formation.

Yes 10 bases in line will be unwieldy.

That's the point. 
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Zippee on 18 September 2016, 12:13:35 PM
Quote from: cameronian on 18 September 2016, 10:20:25 AM
It really pains me to see beautifully painted figures on lovingly crafted scenic bases resting on a village or a road or a wall, at 45degs.

never happens in our games - I suggest people who do this would do it with whatever playing piece you gave them.

Quote...but still obtain the aesthetic advantage of using smaller pieces.

but using smaller bases is an aesthetic disadvantage

The important thing is to do what you think looks though - a broad church (for which we'll need a big base  :D)
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: PERKY on 18 September 2016, 11:39:11 PM
Hi guys
              We use line on big bases because the line was the formation for fighting . Hippie has put figures on smaller bases for putting in towns ,so we remove a big base when it enters a town and replace it with the smaller bases . If the unit moves through the town the big Base is returned to the table .
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: jimduncanuk on 19 September 2016, 12:04:46 AM
Quote from: fsn on 18 September 2016, 10:43:58 AM
I'm accumulating Pendraken Napoleonics at the moment, but I'm planning for a brigade level game with about 60 figures per battalion.  A British bttn would be 10 bases. This will allow me to show line, square and column.

Also looking at the rules to see how long it would take to change formation.

Yes 10 bases in line will be unwieldy.

That's the point. 

A British battalion, and many other nations will organise a battalion into two wings as tactical sub-units. Companies are administrative groups and nothing to do with actual fighting.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: fsn on 19 September 2016, 07:44:11 AM
Your point is?

The maths are: assume a 1:10 figure ratio = 60 figures.  Get 6 figures per base. Therefore 10 bases.

The maths don't work out so well with the French.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Zippee on 19 September 2016, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: jimduncanuk on 19 September 2016, 12:04:46 AM
A British battalion, and many other nations will organise a battalion into two wings as tactical sub-units. Companies are administrative groups and nothing to do with actual fighting.


but those wings were made up of sub-groups, whether we call them platoons, companies, peletons, divisions, zugs is rather immaterial.

All battalions, in the field, would equalise their sub units each day (or at least before action), so yes the company is 'administrative' but is essentially the same as the tactical sub unit, even if sometimes the name changes.

Austrian fusilier battalion for instance are composed of 6 divisions, 3 grand divisions or 2 wings and could and were parcelled out and detached in those portions. Each division was similarly sub-divided into half-divisions and zugs and what not but not for field operations - they only come into play when skirmishing are foraging really.

I agree that Anglicisation in wargaming has led to the term 'company' being used generically and indiscriminately but that doesn't change the fact that such sub-units existed and were the tactical backbone of the battalion
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Last Hussar on 21 November 2016, 09:38:21 PM
Just out of interest, how big are those bases.  Sunjester and I use 6 x 20mm per unit.
Title: Re: WSS Game
Post by: Bunny on 26 November 2016, 08:21:10 AM
A great looking game, I do like the appeal of WSS but as I have a 1800 figure LoA collection and am building up a good 7YW collection I can not really justify building the short middle period as well lol

I really like the look of the single base units and think it looks right and works well for WSS especially when using Black Powder.  the field works are also great look for the heavy batteries, where did you get them from?

Keep up the good work.