All my old 25/28mm and 15mm pike and long-spear armies were re-equipped with wire or pins because I hate the look of limp spaghetti and broken shafts.
These days I prefer smaller scales, particularly 10mm, but I'm completely put off doing any pike armies if I have to use or convert cast-on pikes.
I'm particularly interested in doing some TYW armies and it has been suggested that Old Glory pikemen can be substituted for Pendraken ones. Even so, I believe the OG figures still require drilling.
I have converted a few Pendraken ensigns, but it's tedious and the patient does not always survive the operation.
I would love it if Pendraken did open-handed pikes. Am I in a minority?
The LOA pikemen are openhanded
I too have a long standing desire for open handed pikemen, but in my case it is an aversion to the tiny toothpicks currently carried by Pendraken ECW "pikemen". That said, I do already have about 1400+ AIM 10mm ECW pikemen, so I am probably not in the market for a load myself! As Lemmey says, however, the LOA pikemen show the way to go.
Mollinary
Doctor,
Like you I have transitioned down to 10mm from 25mm and share some of your opinions regarding the appearance of pikes.
My 25s had most of their pikes replaced with pins or wires (all with sharp points). It was rather like playing with clowders of porcupines and often lead to the flow of blood.
Here is a pic of Pendraken, Minifig, and OG pikemen (some where on my blog an Irregular is also included):
(https://inredcoatragsattired.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/pike-p-m-o-scale.jpg?w=600)
I use the OG as ensigns in command groups rather than pikemen. Yes, they need to be drilled (I use a dremel with1/32" bit, pretty easy if the base is well secured). I included the pic to show the molded base on the OGs. The figures can be separated pretty easily but the base has to be kept to maintain figure height.
While the Pendraken pike is shorter (maybe 14' pike) I actually prefer it both for overall look and storage (I use really thin boxes)
The Minifigs got cut down to the same length and re-pointed. The story I tell myself to justify this is the one about pikemen shortening their weapons for ease of transport while in the field.
I've just ordered some LOA pikemen (and pikes) so I'll put up a picture once I have a few completed.
Quote from: d_Guy on 01 March 2016, 10:28:20 PM
While the Pendraken pike is shorter (maybe 14' pike) I actually prefer it both for overall look and storage (I use really thin boxes)
The Minifigs got cut down to the same length and re-pointed. The story I tell myself to justify this is the one about pikemen shortening their weapons for ease of transport while in the field.
Assuming you use a reasonable number of pikemen on your base the impression of a pike block will be maintained if you use shorter pikes.
Quote from: doctorphalanx on 01 March 2016, 07:36:48 PM
All my old 25/28mm and 15mm pike and long-spear armies were re-equipped with wire or pins because I hate the look of limp spaghetti and broken shafts.
These days I prefer smaller scales, particularly 10mm, but I'm completely put off doing any pike armies if I have to use or convert cast-on pikes.
I'm particularly interested in doing some TYW armies and it has been suggested that Old Glory pikemen can be substituted for Pendraken ones. Even so, I believe the OG figures still require drilling.
I have converted a few Pendraken ensigns, but it's tedious and the patient does not always survive the operation.
I would love it if Pendraken did open-handed pikes. Am I in a minority?
Exactly how I feel I would love to do the ECW but won't until there is an open handed option.
Take care
Andy
Well, if the LOA pikemen represent the future trend I applaud it. I'll just have to wait for the ECW/TYW range to be remodelled...
Any recommendations for 10mm pikes? In the past I used piano wire and dress pins. In recent years there have been some nice wire pikes available for 15mm and 25/28mm with shaped heads. Anything like that for 10mm?
My old Ancient/Renaissance armies were notorious for inflicting flesh wounds - it taught people to treat my figures with respect!
That's easy: LOA11 pikes!
http://www.pendraken.co.uk/LOA11-p6174/
I don't know that the LoA example can be taken as an offical change of direction; it was something I just went with unprompted because I don't like bendy pikes either. But with other sculptors it may be different. Indeed some customers will hate the idea of gluing pikes on.
@mad lemmey
Are you saying LOA11 is suitable for TYW?
Is there a photo somewhere?
Quote from: clibinarium on 02 March 2016, 12:42:17 AM
I don't know that the LoA example can be taken as an offical change of direction; it was something I just went with unprompted because I don't like bendy pikes either. But with other sculptors it may be different. Indeed some customers will hate the idea of gluing pikes on.
What Clib says is spot on....From memory....When we've discussed this before, a lot of folk really hate the idea of having to add pikes themselves.
Personally...If this was something I had to deal with as a gamer, rather than as a sculptor, I'd use 0.7 or 0.8mm brass wire...flatten one end with a pair of 'smooth' pliers, or a pin hammer....then shape the flattened end with the Dremmel and a carborundum disc.
A somewhat gutty job, if there are 'lots' to do...and I do realise that not everyone has access to a Dremmel.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: doctorphalanx on 02 March 2016, 12:50:54 AM
@mad lemmey
Are you saying LOA11 is suitable for TYW?
Is there a photo somewhere?
If you want 30 X 30mm long steel rods, absolutely! :)
Not the period, but Pendraken Macedonian pike are cast open-handed.
Quote from: doctorphalanx on 02 March 2016, 12:50:54 AM
@mad lemmey
Are you saying LOA11 is suitable for TYW?
Is there a photo somewhere?
These are just straight pieces of wire pre-cut to the right length. There is no cast or shaped head.
As Phil has said, this is one of those debates that comes up regularly and for every person who wants them open-handed there's an equal number who hate the idea of having to glue pikes onto every figure. The only real solution is to offer both types... :'(
My vote goes for open handed 8)
I mean adding the pike is a whole lot easier than painting or basing them (if they are cats open handed - drilling them out is a PITA) don't listen to the lazy whingers, lead by example :D
As a "lazy whinger" I loathe having to fit pikes and spears to open hands, life's too short.
If you've time to do that, you've time to remove cast ones and replace them.
Making pikes with shaped ends would require some effort but sticking a pike in place is pretty minimal in comparison to all the effort of de-flashing, painting and basing, not to mention a lifetime of straightening and repair when the pikes go wonky or break. Plain wire and pins are not ideal, but I would prefer them to bent/broken cast ones. North Star do some good wire spears for larger scale figures. I don't know if any of these are thin enough for 10mm.
Anyway, if Pendraken provided both options we wouldn't be having this debate, and the relative sales would show what the real balance of consumer demand was...
The North Star ones are very thin and very long, and sharp!
While the thickness of the shaft might work for 10mm the head is probably too big.
I think the NS head designs vary. Some seem to be more leaf-shaped.
As I see it the biggest problem with having both an open-hand and cast-on pike variant is the production expense. I don't know enough about the moulding technology but it seems like you would either have to make two separate moulds or a single one with arms separate (so you could go either way - which would be perry cool). In either case probably a whole new set of moulds to make. Perhaps the cost is trivial but I doubt it - only Pendraken can answer that.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 March 2016, 10:46:09 AM
If you've time to do that, you've time to remove cast ones and replace them.
I totally agree with this. I'm not very skilled at doing this stuff but I do try switching heads (and arms) and adding green stuff for various reasons. The whole issue is how much time you want to spend on anyone thing. It honestly seems like cutting off the existing pike, drilling or notching the hand then adding the new wire pike would not be that difficult.
The Doctor points out what I think is the greater problem - what to use for the new, thinner pike. In 25mm I used brass rod with leaf points braised on (I think from Redoubt). These were just excellent, looked fantastic, and were sharper than all get out. I haven't found an equivalent in 10mm. Don't like rod or wire if no pike head of some sort is not put in place.
Quote from: jimduncanuk on 01 March 2016, 11:13:49 PM
Assuming you use a reasonable number of pikemen on your base the impression of a pike block will be maintained if you use shorter pikes.
I agree! I use six figures on a 1" square base which packs them in pretty good. A Teracio has 4 of this in a 2" square which, to me at least, is impressive.
As a recent convert to 10mm I'm sold on the scale, sorry if I got a little to "missionary" on this. :)
Quote from: Leon on 02 March 2016, 10:02:43 AM
As Phil has said, this is one of those debates that comes up regularly and for every person who wants them open-handed there's an equal number who hate the idea of having to glue pikes onto every figure. The only real solution is to offer both types... :'(
Any chance of this happening if yes what sort of time scale till ready to buy
Take care
Andy
Some pike heads were little more than spikes. http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=24930
If you Google pikes and look at groups of re-enactors, you can hardly see the pike heads.
Translate that to 10mm and arms length and I would think that a pin with a dab of silver was a quite adequate representation, and possibly a more accurate representation than an 'over-modelled' cast pike head.
Here's Holbein's famous drawing of Landsknecht pikemen:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad-war.jpg#/media/File%3ABattle_Scene%2C_after_Hans_Holbein_the_Younger.jpg
More evidence of pikes just looking like long pointy things.
Those are very good points (pun intended), Doctor, particularly for the bodkin?- like point. In 10mm particularly true. And yes, "over-modeled" may be worse than not modeled at all. Diamond and leaf points (I think, but can't now source) were a bit more common in the Low Countries and the British Isles and I just happen to like them, over modeled or not. Anyway you seem very knowledgeable and I hope you find a way into doing TWY in 10mm! I would continue to enjoy your comments.
I've actually found my pack of NS metal pikes now - and they have quite a fine head. Compared with the pike head on EC1 its fractionally taller, but not by very much at all.
The shafts look about the thickness of a cast on Pendraken lance shaft on WWI british cavalry, perhaps a touch thicker than the pike on EC1. So the thickness is certainly right
The biggest problem is that they are 100mm long, so you will get a lot of extra shaft, per head!!
Quote from: d_Guy on 02 March 2016, 04:09:16 PM
I totally agree with this. I'm not very skilled at doing this stuff but I do try switching heads (and arms) and adding green stuff for various reasons. The whole issue is how much time you want to spend on anyone thing. It honestly seems like cutting off the existing pike, drilling or notching the hand then adding the new wire pike would not be that difficult.
I don't! The difference in time and effort is vast. Adding a seperate pike is quick and simple, removing an existing and drilling for a new is tedious, time consuming and arduous. Especially when multiplied out a couple of hundred times. The first is an irrelevant addition to the cleaning up and basing process, the second more than doubles the work.
Suggesting they are synonymous is disingenuous in the extreme and truly bizarre.
I've cut the flag poles off some ACW ensigns but my attempt to do this with SYW figures didn't go well so I gave up. I certainly wouldn't be prepared to attempt this on hundreds of figures.
You can get adequately long dress pins, i.e. over 30mm. They come in varying gauges so it's probably best to review them in a haberdashery if you can bear the embarrassment.
http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/3830/a-pin-for-every-purpose/page/all
The NS spears come in at least two lengths. I don't know how the gauges compare. Cutting them down is straightforward, but wear eye protection.
Quote from: Zippee on 02 March 2016, 06:38:01 PM
I don't! The difference in time and effort is vast. Adding a seperate pike is quick and simple, removing an existing and drilling for a new is tedious, time consuming and arduous. Especially when multiplied out a couple of hundred times. The first is an irrelevant addition to the cleaning up and basing process, the second more than doubles the work.
Suggesting they are synonymous is disingenuous in the extreme and truly bizarre.
I don't think I said anything about the process being equal in time. The initial premise concerned how much time one wishes to spend to achieve a certain result.
If I had actually tried the process of removing and replacing (rather than a quick thought experiment), found it difficult and then said it was not difficult - that would have been disingenuous.
As to bizarre - well you got me there - I have many bizarre ideas :)
Quote from: d_Guy on 02 March 2016, 04:09:16 PM
As I see it the biggest problem with having both an open-hand and cast-on pike variant is the production expense. I don't know enough about the moulding technology but it seems like you would either have to make two separate moulds or a single one with arms separate (so you could go either way - which would be perry cool). In either case probably a whole new set of moulds to make. Perhaps the cost is trivial but I doubt it - only Pendraken can answer that.
We'd be looking at around £300 I'd think to modify the 4 English and 4 Scots pikemen poses and remould them empty handed. We'd then need to shift close to a couple of hundred packs to recoup that outlay, so it's probably not viable.
There are also some indirect problems it would pose as well. If we make them open-handed it's better for casting but looks odd when the figure isn't gripping the pike. Closed hands look better and provide a better attachment, but that part of the moulds would wear quicker and the hand-hole would soon fill with flash, meaning more work to drill them out every time. Which of the types would we put into our army packs on the show stand? And finally, if we did them for the ECW range, we'd very quickly get requests for the same dual-options in every other pike-y range we've got!
Quote from: Womble67 on 02 March 2016, 04:36:42 PM
Any chance of this happening if yes what sort of time scale till ready to buy.
Probably not unfortunately, and it would be very far down the queue if we ever did decide to do it.
Not having this problem yet, as i don't do pike troops!
But i think i would rather have them cast on, that way you can remove and drill if you don't like them. To me that would look sturdier as opposed to half open hands.
If hoplites come, can Macedonians be far behind?
Lousy scansion!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 03 March 2016, 02:11:55 AM
If hoplites come, can Macedonians be far behind?
Lousy scansion!
Probably not!
Just been checking the Painting Competition, and there are some amazing pieces of work this year. Congrats everyone! The reason I have posted here is the last set of pics on the Army list have been put up by Leon of behalf of forum member d'Hautpoul. They show a lovely ECW army with, I think(!) pikemen with replaced pikes. They certainly look the business. :D
Mollinary
Quote from: Leon on 02 March 2016, 08:53:44 PM
We'd be looking at around £300 I'd think to modify the 4 English and 4 Scots pikemen poses and remould them empty handed. We'd then need to shift close to a couple of hundred packs to recoup that outlay, so it's probably not viable.
Ok I would be willing to give pendraken £30 to get something I would like.
Are there another 9 forum members also willing to pledge £30.
Could be less if more pledge.
Take care
Andy
I will chuck in. I quite like the ECW pikes as they are. Just gives everyone the variety, like FPW French and Prussian standard bearers...
Quote from: mad lemmey on 03 March 2016, 11:50:03 PM
I will chuck in. I quite like the ECW pikes as they are. Just gives everyone the variety, like FPW French and Prussian standard bearers...
Thanks
8 to go
Take care
Andy
I'd contribute £30 towards the production of open-handed pikemen suitable for TYW, though that begs the question of which figures are suitable.
I haven't looked in detail at what I'd need for TYW as I've been put off by the pike issue. Perhaps I should raise that in another thread.
Richard
Quote from: doctorphalanx on 04 March 2016, 08:17:07 AM
I'd contribute £30 towards the production of open-handed pikemen suitable for TYW, though that begs the question of which figures are suitable.
I haven't looked in detail at what I'd need for TYW as I've been put off by the pike issue. Perhaps I should raise that in another thread.
Richard
Are the English Civil War figures suitable for Thirty Years War ?
If so 7 to go
Take care
Andy
I started a thread here to discuss TYW codes:
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,13784.0.html
agree with the open handed pikemen but what about having open handed flag bearers as well , I have had quite a few bendy and broken flag poles >:(
Now maybe i am just blessed, but i have never had a broken flagpole up until now :-\
Worst thing to come off was a bajonet, and that was during prepping using a needle file.
There's a thread on flags and poles (technically also called 'pikes') here: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2562.0.html
The trouble already is that people start thinking about which other ranges/figures they'd prefer open-handed and it starts that domino effect. If we did the ECW's, we'd then get asked about the Elizabethans, and so on. It's a slippery slope...! :D
Quote from: Leman on 02 March 2016, 07:54:36 AM
Not the period, but Pendraken Macedonian pike are cast open-handed.
That is one of the main reasons I have avoided a macedonian army, despite having an Indiamn opponent
As Leon says its a matter of preference
Quote from: doctorphalanx on 04 March 2016, 10:06:01 AM
There's a thread on flags and poles (technically also called 'pikes') here: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2562.0.html
No open handed flag poses for me.The more pieces you need for a model,the more chances you run out of stuff. If you do all your shopping by mail like me, that means paying postage to get the item, or waiting for a bigger order to add to.
As i said, never had a flagpole go bad on me, so not worth the hassle in my opinion.
* a point to consider, i always wanted to go with Xyston to make a spartan army (Was considering that 7 years ago), but never went that way, because i found the open hand way just annoying. Especially when the pack sizes of models and spears/pikes never work out. For example with xyston, a pack is 8 models, and a spear pack is 50 (and they are all 50mm so you have to cut to size too). I needed 52 models to make the force i wanted. And the spears are 6,75£. No way i am paying that amount for 2 lousy spears, just to complete 2 models i already paid for.
Or when you buy their dba army pack for 25£ and then have to pay more than 1/5th of that price just to get spears for them.
I'll have everything cast on please :P
Quote from: Leon on 04 March 2016, 11:37:28 AM
The trouble already is that people start thinking about which other ranges/figures they'd prefer open-handed and it starts that domino effect. If we did the ECW's, we'd then get asked about the Elizabethans, and so on. It's a slippery slope...! :D
I see what you mean :o
Take care
Andy