Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => General Discussion => Topic started by: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM

Title: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM
This is something that gets discussed by the traders quite regularly, and after it came up on another forum recently I thought it would be interesting to discuss it here as well. 

Discounting seems to be quite the trend these days, from the various voucher websites and apps for everyday items, the regular holiday and 'Black Friday' sales that we see, all the way through to the host of online sellers heavily discounting all manner of goods.

Within wargaming, there's a variety of mainly online and eBay sellers offering upto 30% discounts on GW stuff and similar, and then there's other traders who categorically state they don't do discounts.  On the customer side, I've seen comments on other websites from people who won't buy anything unless they get 20% off?  And then there's folks who are happy to just pay the price and get their goodies.

From a Pendraken viewpoint, we've had all sorts over the years.  We've had customer's place a £500 order as normal through the website without any expectation of getting a better deal.  At the other end of the spectrum, we've had people asking for discount on 1 or 2 items.  At Salute a couple of years back a guy came over with 2 sets of decals, totalling £5, and asked us 'What's the best price you can do on these?'!

I've often wondered if it's something that the younger gamers expect more, due to it being so common within the GW and related Sci-Fi sellers?

So:
- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
- How much discount makes it worthwhile?


DISCLAIMER:  This isn't a 'Oooh, Pendraken are going to start doing discounts' thread, it's just an interesting discussion!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Ithoriel on 17 February 2016, 02:06:32 AM
Some random thoughts.

I'm not averse to haggling if I think it's worth it.

E.G. Compact Digital Camera already discounted from £120 to £99.99 as it was end of range and ex-display. Haggled down to £50 plus 50% off the headphones I was buying.

I've haggled over new kitchen units and got a fridge and under-unit lighting thrown in.

Tumble dryer - took extended warranty, got 10% discount, cancelled warranty during cooling off period.

I need to feel the sales person is up for haggling though, so careful conversation always precedes the attempt to reduce costs!

With most wargames companies I'd be less inclined as I think they are run on a shoestring as it is. I'm happy not to get a discount if the trade off is that the company is still around next time I want whatever they make. If wargames companies are charging more for their figures than they are worth to me I'll buy them cheaper (discounted/ second-hand) or do without.

I still have piles of GW stuff from the days they ran regular sales in the shops that I would never have paid full price for.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: paulr on 17 February 2016, 04:01:42 AM
I seem to agree with most of Ithoriel's random thoughts  ;) :-\

Except I have NO GW, each to their own

Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM
- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
- How much discount makes it worthwhile?


DISCLAIMER:  This isn't a 'Oooh, Pendraken are going to start doing discounts' thread, it's just an interesting discussion!

- being on the far side of the world and often doing 'special orders' I normally have to ask what it will cost and usually get a nice surprise with a discount or reduced postage, haven't had to ask :)

- being so far away all my orders tend to be large, I would look to get something if my order was more than £50

- a discount or other acknowledgement of a large order is appreciated, one large order is easier for the seller than multiple small ones ;)

- on a large order even 10% is appreciated

Bugger ;D

For me good service is more important than discounts but I want to pay reasonable prices as it allows me to buy more
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 17 February 2016, 04:25:10 AM
I haven't given it much thought, save that Newlines have a periodic "four for the price of three" sale, which I wait for when I use their stuff in a big project (like their impending 10 mm ancient Chinese).
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Shecky on 17 February 2016, 04:49:50 AM
I've been on both sides at shows - as a seller and a buyer. As a seller I would often offer discounts on the last day as that meant more money for me and less books to pack and carry home. As a buyer I don't recall ever asking for a discount but there have been times the vendor reduced the price or threw in other things to sweeten the deal. I suspect it had more to do with them wanting the money and reducing what they had to cart back.

For online gaming purchaes I usually buy based on quality rather than sales or discounts. However, the one time I bought solely because a manufacturer was having a half off sale I regretted it because the quality of the figures were not that great. If there is a choice of vendors for the same product I usually weigh the cost between who deliver it to me the quickest and at the cheapest price. For example, I was looking for some 28mm crusades figures. I found that ordering directly from Perry would be cheaper and quicker if I ordered over $100 worth than if I ordered the same figures from a vendor in the states.

Btw, I've found Pendraken to be the most affordable and highest quality 10mm figures around.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Sandinista on 17 February 2016, 05:19:39 AM
I am a member of the Pike & Shot Society and through them I get a few discounts when I remember about it http://www.pikeandshotsociety.org/documents/Membership%20Benefits.pdf (http://www.pikeandshotsociety.org/documents/Membership%20Benefits.pdf) As others have said, I would prefer the company to still be trading than worry about saving the price of a pint or 2.

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: jambo1 on 17 February 2016, 05:50:37 AM
Work in sales so haggling is part of my life, some people see it like a game and it can be fun, as for my gaming needs I never really think of asking for a discount if it's not there most companies I use are very well priced so probably don't feel the need to offer discounts.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 17 February 2016, 06:21:19 AM
As a very good friend once said: "Wargamers are tight wads!"

Go to a model railway show, no one EVER haggles, it's considered an insult. People arrive with a budget, and spend it.

In my own opinion, and I'm usually wrong, but Most wargames firms are small or single person or family ventures, if they are offering any reduction it's because they already have it built in to their profit margin. 'Mate's rates' are great, but I feel guilty when they happen. I don't ask and don't expect to receive a discount, if one is offered, wonderful, and I will probably be back, but since my spends rarely exceed £50 a go, I feel it's rude to ask.
A lot of companies run at 10% under rrp, I do wonder what the mark-up is, and how much they are losing.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Steve J on 17 February 2016, 06:56:38 AM
In the prototyping business, the larger the order, the more discount a customer might get. For example running the same silicone tool many times is cheaper than lots of tools just once. If I place a large order with a wargames company, it is often the norm that over a certain value you get free P&P and/or a discount.

I remember at Colours 5 or more years ago it used to be the norm to see show discounts offered by many of the traders. It's something that I've noticed less of these days. Possibly with most companies having an online presence has removed the need for these or the cost of stands has meant that they can no longer affored to offer them.

Having worked in Nigeria where haggling is the norm, we would just price our goods higher than we expected to sell them, so when haggled down we would still get the price we wanted. I've done this at Bring'n'Buys before. However nowadays at such events, everyone seems to check Amazon and Ebay prices so you can only seem to sell at the cheapest price on the internet.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Fenton on 17 February 2016, 07:34:44 AM
The only thing I look for occasionally is free P&P over a certain amount of goods purchased. That's about it think
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: fsn on 17 February 2016, 08:26:42 AM
For Pendraken I'm agin' 'em.

My logic is that if you discount 10% on an order of £100 then either a) the company takes a hit of £10 or b) the cost of everything has to go up a little bit to cover the loss of the £10 discount.

The other thing that would lead to, I would humbly suggest, is that customers would just submit fewer, larger orders. Instead of ordering £50 per month, one would order £100 every 2 months. There may be benefits to the Dark Lord in doing this, for his ways are mysterious and many, (but possibly in postage and packing), but it does seem to be an over-complication.

Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
Not for new stuff. I would barter at a bring and buy.

Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
Depends on what you're buying doesn't it? If you're spending £50 on figures, that's 300+ figures. It's 17 or so tanks. It's less than the cost of some of the terrain items you have on offer. I wouldn't expect a discount on orders over £50 if I'm buying a £65 village. 

Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
If you're Pendraken, no. I would be ashamed to take a discount. Pendraken products are not expensive. You'd have to convince me that you offering to give me money back on stuff I was going to buy anyway would benefit Pendraken. If you're GW then yes. Anything over one Space marine should be discounted.

How much discount makes it worthwhile?
10%.

DISCLAIMER:  This isn't a 'Oooh, Pendraken are going to start doing discounts' thread, it's just an interesting discussion!
So when are we looking to have it introduced? Is it worth delaying my February order?  :P

Seriously, I think that "once you go Pendraken, there ain't no road back." You bend over backwards, most of the time. (I'm not blaming Leon for the WWII Polish infantry being in all the poses I dislike and them being introduced shortly after I had made my feeling on kneeling, prone and shooting figures quite clear on this forum is, I'm sure, coincidence) There's always the "could you just swap ..", service levels are fantastic and the range is not only mouth wateringly huge (Byzantines, chariots, modern infantry and heroes excepted) but constantly growing and improving.

Which is a long way round of saying that if Pendraken were to offer discounts, I would suggest that it be something for first time buyers, just to get 'em started.  The rest of us are already addicts. (Visions of Dave hanging around schools saying "hey kid, you want some League of Ausberg Gunners inspecting horses' feet?")

We, the unidentifiable bits in the Pendraken Tutti Frutti (gosh, haven't done one of those for ages) don't appear to be clamouring for a discount. Nor indeed is there much groaning about the upcoming price rises. If you are thinking about a discount scheme, make sure it benefits Pendraken. I'm sure we (the blind kittens hanging off the Pendraken teat) want Pendraken to prosper more than we want discounts.     
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leman on 17 February 2016, 08:41:40 AM
As a member of The Lance and Longbow Society I get discounts from certain manufacturers. Other than that I don't seek discounts as I had it firmly embedded as a child that greed is something you just don't do. One of the reasons I've found a lot of attitudes in this country since the 80s to be so vile.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 17 February 2016, 09:34:06 AM
I get discount from one company - so I tailor my hobby to include as much as I can from that one seller to help us both out.

I recently bought something from a seller that did a 20% discount sale. Didn't spend much, but it worked out to the value saved would have been the cost of the postage. If they hadn't offered the discount I wouldn't have bought from them, except, possibly, at a show if I had some spare money at the end of the day.

Peter Pig gives free postage after £80 spent - so last things I bought I got in bulk to make use of this. Though I would normally just buy small, as £3 or so postage isn't an issue.

Some companies I only ever purchase from if they've got an online discount offer on. Warlord and North Star being such companies - They don't sell hardly anything I collect, that being the reason.

I do think Wargames Club discounts, or Society discounts are a good thing. But only if such organisations combined spending justifies the discount. Also, helping out clubs to have a 'club army', where its available for members to use and encourage to try a new scale or period isn't such a bad thing. Richmond Fantasy Club had such a 'club army' (Imperial Guard for GW 40K) to help younger players, or Fantasy players who were stuck for a game but there was a Sci-Fi player available. The local gaming store and GW helped out massively to make this 'club army' be financially do-able (the money used to buy it coming from the club coffers - after other expenses were met).
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Subedai on 17 February 2016, 09:42:17 AM
As others have said, it depends where you are. In countries where haggling is the norm then yes; at B&B's then also yes if I think the item is overpriced to start with and I want it badly otherwise if I think it's a good deal then fair enough. As to asking retailers no, I wouldn't ask them because like Leman, I was brought up the same way. Also, being slightly old school, I will always return to a company that offers friendly and efficient service and I have found that regular orders tend to generate their own discount because I have been told on a number of occasions 'Okay, call it £20 or £30 etc for cash', knowing full well that the order exceeds the amount requested. However, I am not averse to taking advantage of discounts if it's on an item that I particularly want.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Bodvoc on 17 February 2016, 12:49:24 PM
From a wargamers point of view, I am happy to take advantage of offers and discounts put forward by companies but I cannot recall ever having asked for a discount, to me that is just rude. If you want something, then pay the asking price. However, you should see me haggle over the price of a car, particularly what a dealer offers me in 'exchange' as I always do my homework first.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: toxicpixie on 17 February 2016, 12:56:07 PM
I wonder how much is down to the "market stall" feeling in the industry, as generated by shows & most people involved being realtively small hobby-traders as opposed to "high street" businesses as such? Certainly when I started going to shows way back when it felt very much like that ("Getcha loverly Assyrians, twenty for a quid, cutting me own throat!"), but perhaps less so recently. That "market stall" feeling then permeates through to on line sales, so people expect a bit of a price knock off here and there?
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 17 February 2016, 01:15:34 PM

First a  reply about general wargame purchases

- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?

I might if it was a big order (£100+) or a large wargaming company. If its a small company (like most wargaming companies) I would not as none that I know are driving Ferraris.

- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)

Most companies that I have bought from seem to give a small discount or free samples if you place a reasonably sized order anyway.
i.e at a show your purchase is rounded down, or a few extra figures are thrown in (command or gunners are always useful)

- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?

A discount should not be expected.- The figures still contain the same amout of work and materials per pack, unless it is an army pack where the work of bagging up individual packs has been saved. Most companies already discount Army packs

- How much discount makes it worthwhile?

A larger discount might make me put in a larger order. Or I might buy it earlier than planned.  I tend to buy what I want when I want rather than wait for discount

I would rather have the company in business than get a discount. If the price is fair I will buy it.  If your buying because of the discount the price is either overpriced normally  or you probably don't need it


Specific replies regarding Pendraken
[/size]

- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?

No because:-
often you have offered them (ie 20th Birthday, Mongol Starter)
You customer service is excellennt
You are willing to swap and adapt packs and orders
You prices are very reasonable anyway
We know you all work SILLY hours, giving e a discount effectively adds to this
I want Pendraken around when I want to add to an army in X years time
Your postage rate is very cheap

- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)

Defining the size of order is difficult.  Is a Customer who spends £10 a month worth less than the person who orders £120 once a year? 


- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?


If you recive a large order thats your perrogative. If putting together a single order for £100 takes a lot less time than 5x £20 orders, then perhaps a small discount or a few free samples relevant to the order may be appropriate, but its your choice. 

Personally If I had placed an order for £100 I had planned to spend that anyway. I would rather get some relevant extras added.-figures or MDF bases

If the £100 order is for Army packs that are already discounted, or the order is fiddly then absolutely not.

- How much discount makes it worthwhile?


I view a discount as bonus. I am unlikly to order just because of a discount.

As a customer I do not feel I need or deserve discount. Your service is excellent and you are willing to put together "special orders"  This is worth far more to me than a discount.




Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 17 February 2016, 01:24:02 PM
Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM
I've seen comments on other websites from people who won't buy anything unless they get 20% off? 


I can understand it if its GW prices, but in 99% of cases this is rude and unfair attitude. The hobby can do without people like this as they do not encourage traders to invest in new rangers etc.


Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM
At the other end of the spectrum, we've had people asking for discount on 1 or 2 items.  At Salute a couple of years back a guy came over with 2 sets of decals, totalling £5, and asked us 'What's the best price you can do on these?'!


You served me after him and I remember you were rightly very annoyed.  I think your anwer should have been £6 or   @~#* Off
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Paul S on 17 February 2016, 01:24:58 PM
I'm with most of the comments here.  Don't look for discounts, I know my budget and tend to stick to it.  That's why in show's only ever spend cash not card  ;).

Have turned them down before as I know that corporate gouging doesn't apply to most of the manufacturers I deal with [nother reason to love the smaller scales  :)]

Of all the incentives it's the free P&P that tends to get my trigger - and spend a bit more - oh £5 short of the line, oh well nother pack then :)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Wulf on 17 February 2016, 01:37:34 PM
While I don't ask for discounts, I'll watch for them - or free postage, etc - and preferentially shop there. I'll also boost a purchase just to reach a stated breakpoint, sometimes even if it increases the total spend!  :(

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 17 February 2016, 02:18:47 PM
If I do large orders, i normally ask if there is a discount involved for the shipping.

For example, here in belhium, the postage cost goes by weight, to a certain weight, and everything after that is the same postage cost. So i ask if large orders take that into consideration. On small orders i don't really expect it.

I will sometimes order something if there is a discount mentioned on the site though, like buy 2 get a 3rd free. But that's something different, they state there is a discount, you don't ask for it.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 17 February 2016, 02:21:25 PM
Quote from: Wulf on 17 February 2016, 01:37:34 PM
While I don't ask for discounts, I'll watch for them - or free postage, etc - and preferentially shop there. I'll also boost a purchase just to reach a stated breakpoint, sometimes even if it increases the total spend!  :(



I do this too. I rather pay, for example, 15 more to avoid 10 shipping. My reasoning is, if i would pay 10 shipping, i don't have anything once the order arrives. If i pay the 15 extra and get free shipping, the 10 that i would have spend on the shipping otherwise, now gives me something in return. So that's profit for me! SWMBO thinks otherwise though.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 17 February 2016, 03:05:08 PM
Whoops! Forgot to answer Leon's questions, before. My answers may be considered blunt, but truthful (or even, just Yorkshire).

- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
No. Wouldn't dream of it. If I was the seller and someone asked it of me, I'd actually tell them to F' off and to Hell with their trade. If I (as the seller) offered a discount, I'd have advertised the fact!

- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
No. Free postage, after a certain purchase price, is nice though.

- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
No. You don't get a discount from a grocers or a shoe shop if you buy normal priced items in large quantities, so why should a wargames company be any different.

- How much discount makes it worthwhile?
I reckon, at least, 10% being the norm, in these situations - this based on seeing what other companies offer.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Ithoriel on 17 February 2016, 03:07:40 PM
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 17 February 2016, 03:05:08 PM
- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
No. You don't get a discount from a grocers or a shoe shop if you buy normal priced items in large quantities, so why should a wargames company be any different.

Trust me, you're doing it wrong :)

"Let's do the dance of ... finaance."
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 17 February 2016, 05:39:38 PM
Lots of interesting points so far!  

Quote from: mad lemmey on 17 February 2016, 06:21:19 AM
...if they are offering any reduction it's because they already have it built in to their profit margin.
Quote from: Steve J on 17 February 2016, 06:56:38 AM
Having worked in Nigeria where haggling is the norm, we would just price our goods higher than we expected to sell them, so when haggled down we would still get the price we wanted.

This is certainly something I think happens with the bigger companies, as they have to price their stuff at a level that allows for the wholesale business.  GW offer something like 32%/35%/38% I think depending on what size orders you place and how often you place them, so they must still be able to turn a profit on those sales.  

Conversely, our stuff just isn't priced that way at all.  Before the price increase, roughly 70p out of every £1 went in bills (unit, metal, VAT, staff, etc).  The remaining 30p is me and Dave's wages.  So if we knock 10% off an order, we've lost a third of our wages.  15% discount, half our wages gone.  On trade orders, which we don't do a lot of, we actually lost money, but they've given us good visibility in countries like the US and have built a customer base there who often start buying from us direct instead.  The recent price increase should improve those numbers and give us a bit more leeway.

Quote from: Fenton on 17 February 2016, 07:34:44 AM
The only thing I look for occasionally is free P&P over a certain amount of goods purchased. That's about it think
Quote from: Paul S on 17 February 2016, 01:24:58 PM
Of all the incentives it's the free P&P that tends to get my trigger - and spend a bit more - oh £5 short of the line, oh well nother pack then :)
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 17 February 2016, 03:05:08 PM
No. Free postage, after a certain purchase price, is nice though.

Free postage is something we've looked at a few times, or at least a maximum charge level.  Our shipping rates tend to be quite accurate on most orders, but on really large packages, especially international ones, we can usually get a courier for a lot less than what has been charged to the customer.  In those instances, we contact the customers and work something out with them.

Quote from: fsn on 17 February 2016, 08:26:42 AM
We, the unidentifiable bits in the Pendraken Tutti Frutti (gosh, haven't done one of those for ages) don't appear to be clamouring for a discount. Nor indeed is there much groaning about the upcoming price rises. If you are thinking about a discount scheme, make sure it benefits Pendraken. I'm sure we (the blind kittens hanging off the Pendraken teat) want Pendraken to prosper more than we want discounts.    

Thanks for this (and the other folks who've said similar, albeit less poetically...!), we always appreciate the positive feedback we get from everyone.

Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 17 February 2016, 09:34:06 AM
I do think Wargames Club discounts, or Society discounts are a good thing. But only if such organisations combined spending justifies the discount.

We do offer a number of discounts to the larger societies, so Pike and Shotte, Lance and Longbow, Soc. of 20th C. Wargamers, etc.  The discounts are always on orders over £50.  We don't get that many people taking advantage of them though, whether that's because they don't ask or because we just don't get many society customers, I don't know.

Quote from: Bodvoc on 17 February 2016, 12:49:24 PM
However, you should see me haggle over the price of a car, particularly what a dealer offers me in 'exchange' as I always do my homework first.

That's an interesting point though, are cars one of those areas that British folks are OK to haggle over?  I know in other countries it's certainly more common, but we're quite reserved in the UK.  I've haggled over cars myself, but that's about the only purchase I've done it on.  I always feel embarrassed to ask anyone else.

Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 17 February 2016, 01:15:34 PM
Defining the size of order is difficult.  Is a Customer who spends £10 a month worth less than the person who orders £120 once a year?  

I think some companies would say yes to that, but it's not something I'd agree with.  If you've ordered one pack or a hundred, you've chosen to come and spend your money with us and that's just as much appreciated as the next customer.

Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 17 February 2016, 01:15:34 PM
If the £100 order is for Army packs that are already discounted, or the order is fiddly then absolutely not.

We do discount our army packs by around 10%, not so much for the time involved as it's almost the same as doing them individually, but it does encourage people to spend that little bit more.  It's also a lot easier to take those to the shows than haul multiple packs of 3500 codes around the country!

Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 17 February 2016, 01:24:02 PM
You served me after him and I remember you were rightly very annoyed.  I think your anwer should have been £6 or   @~#* Off

That's right, I remember now!  It was right at the end of the day I think, and he claimed he could get them cheaper at another stand down the aisle, even though I was the only person at the show carrying those products...!

Quote from: petercooman on 17 February 2016, 02:18:47 PM
For example, here in belhium, the postage cost goes by weight, to a certain weight, and everything after that is the same postage cost. So i ask if large orders take that into consideration. On small orders i don't really expect it.

That's interesting on the postal rates, as in the UK they increase quite dramatically as the package gets bigger.  Once you get upto 15-20kg it starts to level out, but anything international can be a nightmare to ship.  500g upto 1kg packages to Australia is about £12 I think, so we usually lose money on the small-mid range Aus/NZ orders.  Anything over 2kg is pointless sending through Royal Mail as it's extortionate, so we have to move to couriers on those ones.

Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 17 February 2016, 03:05:08 PM
No. You don't get a discount from a grocers or a shoe shop if you buy normal priced items in large quantities, so why should a wargames company be any different.

Again, a very good point.  Do people ever ask for discount when they do their weekly shop in Tesco, or when you've had your car repaired by the garage, or when you've gone out for a meal somewhere.  I know some of these places will offer various deals all the time, but these are often the companies/corporations declaring 100's of millions in profit every year, yet people feel more at ease asking for discount from a small business making just enough to get by.


:-\
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leman on 17 February 2016, 05:39:46 PM
He is Scottish you know.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leman on 17 February 2016, 05:40:58 PM
Quote from: Leman on 17 February 2016, 05:39:46 PM
He is Scottish you know.
Leon stuck a massive post in before I could send mine.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 17 February 2016, 06:18:03 PM
I like nothing better than watching local (local) small shop owners faces when they say "£2:80!" And I say "No, call it £3 for cash!"
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Ithoriel on 17 February 2016, 06:45:48 PM
Yes, especially like the look on charity shop workers faces when they realise I'm haggling them up not down :-)

I've done deals on things with Tesco. It's harder work with them than it's really worth most of the time though :-)

With haggling you need to pick your moment and deal with the right level of staff.

I've sweet talked the people discounting the nearly-out-of-date stuff to knock a bit extra off things I wanted and I've talked managers into letting me have things that were clearly just taking up shelf space a bit cheaper. Staff in between don't really have the lee way to do deals in my experience.

I've also persuaded restaurants to knock a bit off the bill or give us something extra if there's been a glitch.

"I'm sorry, sir, your table will be ready in five minutes."
"No problem, we'll just sit over there 'til you're ready. I'm sure you could rustle up a couple of cocktails for us to help us while away the time."
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 17 February 2016, 07:28:35 PM
Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 05:39:38 PM

That's interesting on the postal rates, as in the UK they increase quite dramatically as the package gets bigger.  Once you get upto 15-20kg it starts to level out, but anything international can be a nightmare to ship.  500g upto 1kg packages to Australia is about £12 I think, so we usually lose money on the small-mid range Aus/NZ orders.  Anything over 2kg is pointless sending through Royal Mail as it's extortionate, so we have to move to couriers on those ones.




Just had a looksie, the rates for national packages in belgium:

0-2kg : 5€
2-10 kg: 6€
10-30 kg : 10,50

And for example from belgium to the UK:

Everything up to 10 kg is 16,40€
Everything that is more is 39,69€

Off course you'll have to buy A LOT to get above 10kg.I think that would be several 100 worth of £ !!

Actually it's the jiffy bags that cost us more:

0 g - 100 g :  3,69 €
+ 100 g - 350 g:  7,38 €
350 g - 1 kg:  12,30 €
1 kg - 2 kg:  24,60 €   

So when over one kg, you are better off putting it in a box  ;D


Edit:These are all prices for regular costumers, companies get a discount based on volume i think.


Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 17 February 2016, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 05:39:38 PM

 500g upto 1kg packages to Australia is about £12 I think, so we usually lose money on the small-mid range Aus/NZ orders.  Anything over 2kg is pointless sending through Royal Mail as it's extortionate, so we have to move to couriers on those ones.


Looked that one up and that's 15,60 € for us upto 1 kg :)

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Womble67 on 20 February 2016, 11:07:29 PM
My personal take on discounts is I'd never ask for one but its nice when the vender puts a little something in your order. Maybe only a couple of extra figures but that for me is a really nice touch.

Take care

Andy
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 21 February 2016, 01:38:23 AM
At 'Border Reiver', I used to GO for the 6 for 5 offer from a major stand...used to think; "What else could I want to flesh the buy out with?" !!! I now have piles of stuff that I may never get round to doing anything with...still, I enjoyed the feeling of getting something cheap, and at £12.00 or £6.50 an item, it was worth it.   ;D
I think it just depends on the spend. On the internet, buying is addictive so small buys more often mean that discounts are less important than service and quality for 'regular' wants...however, for major buys such as a 25mm battalion, I would wait for a 'sale'.
A lot also depends on the product supplier. Stuff imported from the USA  is more expensive, it often comes in larger packs and shipping to the vendor means bulk buys are more are more attractive at sale price. For producers like PenD, I think the quality and service are more value...and for smaller outfits, gamers just want the firm to keep in business for the future.
The odd extra figure in a bag is a good find...there are suppliers who sell short and, if it is a frequent occurrence, you wonder whether it is just a slip or intentional.   >:(   This can be a turn off if a missing figure was essential to complete a unit. For REALLY small items like mgs or 1/285 turrets, extra bits are almost essential as deformed mouldings and 'fiddly losses' can be a major disappointment.
PenD is doing it right by me!   ;)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 21 February 2016, 07:38:30 AM
When I used to live in Shrewsbury the 'Marcher' show once did a discount on Mars Bars, buy 1 for 25p, 2 for 50p!
The amount of people who bought 2 because they were on offer!!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 21 February 2016, 07:57:15 AM
And God said, "Let there be idiots."
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 21 February 2016, 10:30:21 AM
Buy one for the price of two. And get another free!

I think all Pendraken Orders should be despatched with a hand-drawn, stick figure drawing included!
To save on costs, drawings scrawled upon old newspapers would be acceptable  :)

(http://www.moserware.com/assets/stick-figure-guide-to-advanced/aes_act_1_scene_02_sad_1100.png)

I'll stop now, as I'm just being silly  :o
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Tawa on 21 February 2016, 02:19:16 PM
Discounts you say?

Heh, if I get given a discount on a decent-sized order, bargain! I'll probably spend that saving on more toys anyway. I'm not one to expect or go looking for a discount though :)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Ithoriel on 21 February 2016, 03:13:17 PM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 21 February 2016, 07:38:30 AM
When I used to live in Shrewsbury the 'Marcher' show once did a discount on Mars Bars, buy 1 for 25p, 2 for 50p!
The amount of people who bought 2 because they were on offer!!

Local supermarket had a "deal" last year, 1ltr fruit juice 95p or 2 for £2. Cashier couldn't understand why I wanted them put through separately when they were part of a deal. Worse still, the two ladies behind me in the queue hadn't realised, until they saw what I was doing, that anything was wrong with the deal!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: d_Guy on 21 February 2016, 03:26:06 PM

Sorry for the late entry - not sure I'm adding anything new.
Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
No - I haggle for unique items in flea markets and antique stores (where often the markups are outrageous to allow for haggling)
For 10mm stuff in particular I want everyone to stay in business and assume everything is priced to do just that.

Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
I don't expect it - I have already overcome the psychological barrier that prevents me parting with my money. If a manufacturer wants to gift me with a few more things to stick in my order that is just gravy! This happens sometime for really large orders but I have no expectations of it.

Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
See above - although frequency of orders might be another consideration - or for those ranges that are not at the moment popular.

How much discount makes it worthwhile?
Well that's like asking how big a coin does it need to be to bend down and pick up?  I pick it all up even when it only looks like it might be a coin. So anything you want to give me that doesn't hurt your bottom line I'm happy to receive

I like the Army Packs that Pendraken offers - a great way to jump into a period and with a built in discount.
A competitor sells an annual membership for  $50 - which gets you about 25% of everything they sell. So if you are buying over .$250 per year it's worth it.

Shipping to the States is expensive but I view it as punishment for not living in Britian😀
I have no idea if you add a handling charge.

Me - I hope you guys are going strong when I have joined the pool of souls.
Just waiting for the dang stone walls to be in inventory so I can order them and some FPW army packs. 😀
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: WeeWars on 22 February 2016, 10:10:30 AM
On Saturday, at my first outing selling at a wargames show:

Customer: Am I your first customer?

Me: No.

Customer: Can I have a discount for being your first customer?

Me: On a £1 purchase?
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 22 February 2016, 10:15:31 AM
Should have said : "99p, but you're not getting a bag then"  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 22 February 2016, 10:36:46 AM
Gah!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 22 February 2016, 10:38:09 AM
Quote from: WeeWars on 22 February 2016, 10:10:30 AM
On Saturday, at my first outing selling at a wargames show:

Customer: Am I your first customer?

Me: No.

Customer: Can I have a discount for being your first customer?

Me: On a £1 purchase?

I would have told them they could have their picture taken, shaking your hand and be immortalised as the first customer. As to a discount yes, 0.5% rounded up to the nearest penny.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: WeeWars on 22 February 2016, 11:20:45 AM
But he wasn't my first customer.  :)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 22 February 2016, 11:22:14 AM
Was the first without shame though  ;D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 22 February 2016, 02:32:32 PM
He nearly came to being the "Frst  punched Custiomer"  :d
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 22 February 2016, 05:58:27 PM
I think the best one we've had was a chap a few years back.  He'd purchased from us previously, so he'd been there when we did the 'Buy 3, Get the 4th Free' on army packs a couple of years ago.  In a different order we'd allowed him to change the composition in some of the army packs to his own lists.  And finally in a third order (at a show I think), we'd knocked a couple of quid off as it was a larger purchase.

We then got an email from him for a quite chunky order.  As we'd allowed him to change the army packs previously, he thought that every 7 packs on the order constituted an army pack, regardless of what they were.  So 5 packs of line and 2 packs of grenadiers = 1 army...  Then as we'd done the '4 for 3' previously, he'd got 3 of these 'armies' and he wanted a 4th one free.  And then as the whole lot was a little over £100, he wanted discount on the final price as well.  I think when I tallied it up it worked out at well over 30% combined discount on the regular prices and we of course had to politely explain that we couldn't do it.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: paulr on 23 February 2016, 12:32:31 AM
WeeWars - Good to hear you are getting customers, hopefully most better than 'him'

Leon - I feel less guilty now ;) He was lucky it was you he was dealing with, most wouldn't have bothered with the polite explanation ;D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 23 February 2016, 08:56:39 AM
Can I ask for a hand-drawn, stick figure picture to be included in my Hammerhead show order?  :P




Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 23 February 2016, 08:29:05 PM
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 23 February 2016, 08:56:39 AM
Can I ask for a hand-drawn, stick figure picture to be included in my Hammerhead show order?  :P


I am sure you can, but a signed original could cost you thousands  ;D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: vladgothic on 08 March 2016, 10:10:35 AM
I'm very much of the opinion 'you gotta ask? you aint gonna get!' camp

If a discount is offered its at the discretion of the vendor, and its very graciously accepted when it is offered  :)

The vendor knows their margin and what is possible, but I would not go out expecting! that's just plain rude!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 08 March 2016, 11:00:32 AM
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 23 February 2016, 08:56:39 AM
Can I ask for a hand-drawn, stick figure picture to be included in my Hammerhead show order?  :P

I didn't get one  :(
Maybe it'll be in the mail order I made, not 24-hours after the show (I always forget something  ;D )


Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 March 2016, 11:02:00 AM
Of course, you'll be giving me a 5% discount for every month I've had to wait for the Mesoamerican range, right?
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 08 March 2016, 11:26:06 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 March 2016, 11:02:00 AM
Of course, you'll be giving me a 5% discount for every month I've had to wait for the Mesoamerican range, right?

So they will just add some bills to the order then  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 March 2016, 11:42:41 AM
I don't think you can make efficient bills (or halberds) with neolithic technology.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 08 March 2016, 10:01:46 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 March 2016, 11:42:41 AM
I don't think you can make efficient bills (or halberds) with neolithic technology.


Never hurts to try it out  :P
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 09 March 2016, 12:42:52 AM
What if Techno's the one trying it?
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 09 March 2016, 07:54:56 AM
Then it always hurts!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 09 March 2016, 08:01:02 AM
Cheek !  ;)
Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Tawa on 09 March 2016, 06:23:12 PM
Swarfega is your friend.....
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Last Hussar on 09 March 2016, 07:52:08 PM
I wonder if all the people trying to get discounts from one man band figure manufacturers ever try that in Tesco, who can actually afford it.

It is perfectly legal to haggle over each and every item in your trolley.  Incidentally, if the price label is wrong they don't have to sell at that price, as long as they make it clear what the price is at time of purchase.  About the only time they must is when the petrol is mispriced, because they can't get it out of your tank.

I've actually told Leon off for giving me freebies.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 10 March 2016, 09:22:12 AM
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 March 2016, 07:52:08 PM
I've actually told Leon off for giving me freebies.

Can we clarify that you actually mean free figures from Leon ?

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 10 March 2016, 11:10:03 AM
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 10 March 2016, 09:22:12 AM
Can we clarify that you actually mean free figures from Leon ?



Wouldn't you rather remain in ignorance of the squalid details?
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Last Hussar on 10 March 2016, 11:22:37 PM
:-&
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 10 March 2016, 11:44:46 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 10 March 2016, 11:10:03 AM
Wouldn't you rather remain in ignorance of the squalid details?

Yes Ignorance is bliss.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Le Manchou on 11 March 2016, 02:10:42 AM
I don't see why there should be a discount on orders under 100 pounds. Over this amount of money, why not because it's faster I suppose to prepare one big order than ten small ones, and time is money.  I have had from time to time discounts from Pendraken and it was nice. It would be nice to get an official policy on discounts like this:

0-100 no discount
100-200 5%
200-500 10%
500-1000 15%
Over 1000: 20% and free shipping worldwide.

LM
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 11 March 2016, 10:22:05 AM
I think Pendraken should do the following:-


Increase the price of all figures by 12%
For every 10 packs you lot order put one aside for me
When they have 20 packs put aside, send them to me

I get all my figures free, and you lot know your contributing to a worthy cause  :D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 11 March 2016, 12:23:33 PM
Quote from: Le Manchou on 11 March 2016, 02:10:42 AM
I don't see why there should be a discount on orders under 100 pounds. Over this amount of money, why not because it's faster I suppose to prepare one big order than ten small ones, and time is money.  I have had from time to time discounts from Pendraken and it was nice. It would be nice to get an official policy on discounts like this:

0-100 no discount
100-200 5%
200-500 10%
500-1000 15%
Over 1000: 20% and free shipping worldwide.

The time is about the same on larger and smaller orders unfortunately, the only time it gets quicker is when there are multiples of the same code and you can just keep spinning and clipping them into one big bag.  It does take more time to package lots of smaller orders, but then that can be the same with a large order that needs a box and booking with a courier, so it all balances out I suppose.

The time aspect is the biggest cost for us probably.  One spin of a 10mm mould gives us a full pack, so £4.95.  A full spin of a 28mm mould would give £20 worth of figures, so you're producing a lot more per hour in the bigger scales.

On those discount levels, the trouble is the figures I mentioned earlier.  We only make around 30p per £1, so if we give 20% discount then that's 2/3rds of our wages gone.  How many folks would still go into work next week if your boss asked you to work for 1/3rd of your normal wage?

:-\
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Ithoriel on 11 March 2016, 12:31:49 PM
How about

It would be nice to get an official policy on discounts like this:

0-100 no discount
100-200 +5% to cost of order
200-500 +10%  to cost of order
500-1000 +15% to cost of order
Over 1000: +20%  to cost of order and double cost of worldwide shipping.

On the grounds that if you can afford to spend that much on toys for grown-ups you can afford to boost Dave and Leon's income a little.

:d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: zackzeta on 29 April 2016, 05:03:39 AM
watch this video on the subject of discounts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxfkWZPAUg4

summary:
people are drawn to discounts even if they're artificial. someone rather buy something for a little bit more if it has a sale on it. instead of buying something at a good price if its normally that price. really suggest watching it. however i really hate this practice big stores use this and its kinda sad that people fall for this. however i do support a loyalty or reward system. maybe after you buy x amount maybe you get y minis extra or something like that.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 29 April 2016, 06:16:30 AM
And as that was your first post.......

A very warn welcome to the forum, 'Z'.  :-h

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Luddite on 29 April 2016, 08:16:59 AM
- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?

No.

- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)

No.

- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?

No.

- How much discount makes it worthwhile?

Irrelevant.

If i want a product, and the price is right, i'll buy it.  Its why i never buy from GW any more - their prices are insulting.

With smaller companies and sole traders (the backbone of my hobby), i'm happy to pay the prices they ask to keep them going.  I have self interest in doing so.  :D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 29 April 2016, 08:18:31 AM
Hi
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leman on 29 April 2016, 12:30:07 PM
Hello Ian.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Roy on 29 April 2016, 01:52:13 PM
I think the first forum member to reach 5,000,000 posts should receive discount on all purchases from Pendraken  :P
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 29 April 2016, 03:14:29 PM
I'll be game to pay the full price for one or two ranges when they become available, if I'm still on salary by then.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 29 April 2016, 04:30:50 PM
Quote from: RoyWilliamson on 29 April 2016, 01:52:13 PM
I think the first forum member to reach 5,000,000 posts should receive discount on all purchases from Pendraken  :P

I totally agree.  At the current rate of about 116 a day  that will be approximately 2134. The order will have to be fulfilled by Dave's Great-Great grandchildren.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 29 April 2016, 04:44:17 PM
Unfortunately, that would be Leon!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 29 April 2016, 04:53:52 PM
I'm sure Leon already gets a good discount.  ;)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: DaveH on 30 April 2016, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: Leon on 17 February 2016, 01:21:29 AM
So:
- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?
- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)
- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?
- How much discount makes it worthwhile?


In order
1. No
2. Not really.
3. Not unless we are talking a really big order (£200+ sort of size)
4. Something like a 10% discount or free postage is good.

I've tended to find that offers are more likely to make me order earlier for things I was already keen to get rather than persuading me to buy things I didn't already have my eye on.

Some companies like Alternative Armies and TSS do their Salute offers even though they don't attend the show they offer a discount on orders over a certain size to catch the eye of people that might otherwise be focused entirely on Salute as their big wargames spend for the year.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: LinLin on 18 May 2016, 07:15:19 AM
unfortunately everyone likes a discount :)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Tarty on 15 June 2016, 02:25:37 AM
Yep if a discount is offered that's great and accepted in the spirt it's given in but it has never ever been expected or been the difference between me purchasing something. 
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 June 2016, 02:48:57 AM
Quote from: Tarty on 15 June 2016, 02:25:37 AM
Yep if a discount is offered that's great and accepted in the spirt it's given in but it has never ever been expected or been the difference between me purchasing something. 

I don't expect one, but I have certainly been persuaded by Newline's 4-for-3 end of year discounts in the past, and no doubt shall be again.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: SgtShepard on 24 December 2016, 12:50:02 PM
Just getting back into the hobby after decades out of it.  I wasn't expecting a discount.  I look for a fair price for what I'm getting or I pass it up.  I would rather not see a discount and have the manufacturer stay in business so I can continue purchasing.  If a company did offer a discount I think 10% would be about right. And for larger orders that would be up to the seller on whether they wanted to reward the larger purchases by individuals or not.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Obsidian23 on 28 December 2017, 09:33:42 AM
Well a discount is nice.

For me personally, I don't mind, especially if what I am buying is a good product.  Pendraken, Foundry, Perry, victrix, I think are very good sculpts and there are a few others.  For these I am happy to pay because I can guarantee what I get is well worth the money.

Not that I ever turn down a discount that's offered.... ;)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Terry37 on 01 July 2018, 10:23:45 PM
Leon, obviously an interesting topic ,and one that might have more impact on younger gamers who may not have the hobby funds available. As for me, I will certainly take advantage of any sale a vendor is offering if I need something, but beyond that I never ask for anything nor do I expect anything. Of course, I am old and retired and have been fortunate enough to settle down to a very enjoyable life of spending time enjoying my two hobbies (cowboy action shooting and wargaming/modeling).Oof course we've never been one to keep up with the Jones's either. So I guess to net it out, If I need something I order it or wait until I can manage the funds for it since I live on a budget.

I  will say that discounts for large orders seldom attract me because being a HOTT gamer I seldom need large amounts of anything.

Terry
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: industrialtrousers on 26 August 2018, 11:09:04 AM
I only look for a discounted/sale price on products I feel are overpriced. Pendraken products don't fall into this category as they are possibly the cheapest quality minis out there. The army pack's are already discounted.

Events like Black Friday do tend to get folks very excited so I can understand the question. Personally I'm happy with free postage deals.

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 26 August 2018, 11:19:41 AM
Hi as you seem to be a new member !

I ask as a joke on occasion. Last time I bought from Leon he gave me a couple of quid off, with out my asking, or expecting !
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Cavillarius on 06 October 2018, 09:37:13 PM
I didn't ask for a discount, got offered about 8% extra value anyway. Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Paper on 01 March 2019, 05:34:41 AM
Discounts are a side effect of shipping, distribution, and other psychological factors!

Everyone wants "free shipping" so typically that means shipping is applied to the unit price. However buying more lowers the shipping cost per unit. Thus you can say "free shipping" and if you order x amount of things you as a shop can offer a discount!

Sometimes there is a discount because a sales channel skips a middle man and passes the saving onto you.

The garment industry wants you to feel like you are getting a quality good at a very cheap price so they have display racks that are high priced and clearance racks that are normal price. This way they get to say you saved so much money on it,

Do any of these hard sales tactics make sense for your business? Perhaps. How should I know.

Prhaps offer promotional vignettes showcasing your latest range of someone orders enough. It may bait customers into ording more of the range later
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: MartinKnight1333 on 28 September 2019, 12:12:54 PM
Discount on big orders if the profit margin allows it  :D
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 01 October 2019, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: MartinKnight1333 on 28 September 2019, 12:12:54 PM
Discount on big orders if the profit margin allows it  :D

And poor Leon's children would have nowt but bread and dripping in their packed lunch for a week.  Leon would be forced to search bins for Coke cans with some left in, and Adelle would have to take in more washing to wash at the stream to make ends meet. :'( :'( :'( :'(

But Martin Knight would be happy with his discount ??  <:-P

P.s Sorry Martin, i could not resist this.  Resisting stuff is a weakness of mine  - hence my divorce !!  :d
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: FierceKitty on 01 October 2019, 12:10:18 PM
Hmphh...looxury!  When I were lad, now....
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 01 October 2019, 01:21:59 PM
WEll der I wuz on dis train goin fro 'Unslet to Bratfud and der wuz dees 4 Yokies on't table next to mes - read the previous in Yokie, almost couldn't exploded in laughter at the conversation. That sketch isn't comedy, it's reportage.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Dragoon on 09 December 2019, 01:33:01 PM
From what I understand you, (Pendraken), do give a discount of 10% on all Army Packs purchased.
On that basis, if someone wants to purchase say £37-00 of single packs then shouldn't the discount apply because as far as time to pack 7 items goes it takes far less time to pack than an army pack of 7 different items.
Perhaps you could try reinforcement packs
You loose a Lot of sales at shows because you only sell army packs. No guns no jaeger, no dragoon's, no hussars no field officers.
I ran my own Convenience (Spar) Store for 30 years and we had a saying, more flash, more cash. If you don't believe me try it with a new range or ask the Pike and Shot Society if they could do a 10mm demo of a League of Augsburg battle it will probably Dutch v French, they have just reprinted there rules for The Sun King they are rated very good and the only ones for the period you could offer to sell the rules for them at the show.
I'm trying to write some Austrian / Seven Years War Rules for 10mm figures but researching army lists takes time
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 09 December 2019, 02:35:59 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on 09 December 2019, 01:33:01 PM
From what I understand you, (Pendraken), do give a discount of 10% on all Army Packs purchased.
On that basis, if someone wants to purchase say £37-00 of single packs then shouldn't the discount apply because as far as time to pack 7 items goes it takes far less time to pack than an army pack of 7 different items.
Perhaps you could try reinforcement packs
You loose a Lot of sales at shows because you only sell army packs. No guns no jaeger, no dragoon's, no hussars no field officers.
I ran my own Convenience (Spar) Store for 30 years and we had a saying, more flash, more cash. If you don't believe me try it with a new range or ask the Pike and Shot Society if they could do a 10mm demo of a League of Augsburg battle it will probably Dutch v French, they have just reprinted there rules for The Sun King they are rated very good and the only ones for the period you could offer to sell the rules for them at the show.
I'm trying to write some Austrian / Seven Years War Rules for 10mm figures but researching army lists takes time

While I am nothing to do with Pendraken, buit  I don't think it works that way Dragoon.  I have worked at shows for a couple of traders and the cost of the stand and attending the show is huge.  The trader I helped out with at Salute with for many years had to take over £2000 in sales just to cover the costs of a 6 Foot stand, and getting there. That was without any staff costs (I helped out as a favor) or taking any money himself, Hiring a Van or having to pay for accommodation.


The reason there are only army packs and blister packs of multiple vehicles on the stand at shows is because of the volume of figures Pendraken produce.   It  would be a logistical nightmare to bring even 1 of each pack to a show. They would need an even bigger stand to show it, and each pack would have to be counted into individual blisters not small zip lock bags. They would also need far more stock than now. All of this increasing the cost further.

Managing what stock was sold sold so you know what to replace for the next show would be another big headache.

The result of this would probably be either:-

A- The cost of the attending the show would outweigh any sales - so not worth attending in the first place. Several big traders no longer attend shows because of this.

B - All prices have to go up to cover the costs of the blister packs and the much larger stand at shows.

I very much doubt you would have stayed in business as a convenience store for long if you had doubled your outgoings for a return of a fraction of the extra cost.


Now to Packs and army packs

The individual packs are 7 sets of 30 individual figures counted into a 7 small single bags,  Army packs are in a single big bag, so a lot less fiddly.

The army contents  often specify a mix of codes ie for WW2 American the last bit states "90 figs from AMF1/2"  While the mix will be roughly 45 figures from each pack it may have a few less of one and a few more of the other, depending on what figures have come out of the mold correctly formed or what is in the spares bin for those codes.


I doubt if Pendraken loose many sales at shows because of the lack of individual packs.  people just starting off will normally buy an army pack of each side. Those who want specifics either for a starter army or as additions to what they have will pre-order and pick up at the show.

Pendraken are on of the few manufacturers who will allow you to customize your packs for a very slight increase in cost


I am sure Leon will be along soon to correct anything I have got wrong








Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Dr Dave on 09 December 2019, 04:03:36 PM
As far as I know it's up to the manufacturer whether to offer discounts or not. A customer can always ask, but there is never and entitlement.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 09 December 2019, 06:26:39 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on 09 December 2019, 01:33:01 PM
From what I understand you, (Pendraken), do give a discount of 10% on all Army Packs purchased.
On that basis, if someone wants to purchase say £37-00 of single packs then shouldn't the discount apply because as far as time to pack 7 items goes it takes far less time to pack than an army pack of 7 different items.

It's a little different there, the moulds for the army packs are usually put together to maximise efficiency, hence the discount.  If we take something like the 1809 French pack, we've managed to get 41 figures in the NPF1 mould, so to get the 4 x NPF1 for the army pack we only need to spin it 3 times.  Same for the command, we keep spares of NPF3 so we can usually put together 1/2 x NPF3 from our spares tray, again reducing the time involved. 

Discounting the army packs in general also adds an incentive for people to spend more, same as any multipack item you'd get in a supermarket, so it increases revenue.

Quote from: Dragoon on 09 December 2019, 01:33:01 PM
You loose a Lot of sales at shows because you only sell army packs. No guns no jaeger, no dragoon's, no hussars no field officers.

The show's is pretty much as Mark says below, to bring all 4000 products (in enough volume to not run out) would require a much bigger stand and lot more bookkeeping to keep on top of stock levels.  There's a good chance that we'd also be over the weight limit on the van (we were actually stopped and put on a weighbridge earlier this year and just sneaked in under the limit!) so it's not really viable to bring individual packs.

We do offer the free postage on any orders placed at the show though, as well as the option to collect anything you've ordered in advance.

Quote from: Orcs on 09 December 2019, 02:35:59 PM
The trader I helped out with at Salute with for many years had to take over £2000 in sales just to cover the costs of a 6 Foot stand, and getting there. That was without any staff costs (I helped out as a favor) or taking any money himself, Hiring a Van or having to pay for accommodation.

I know that feeling!  With the stand, accommodation, fuel and food, on top of the base production and overhead costs of the business, we need to take £7500 at Salute just to break even.  We've managed to hit that twice in the past 10 years...

Quote from: Orcs on 09 December 2019, 02:35:59 PM
The army contents  often specify a mix of codes ie for WW2 American the last bit states "90 figs from AMF1/2"  While the mix will be roughly 45 figures from each pack it may have a few less of one and a few more of the other, depending on what figures have come out of the mold correctly formed or what is in the spares bin for those codes.

WWII is a good example actually as those 'mix of...' army packs are similar to the ones I mentioned above.  We'll have a single mould with a 50/50 mix of AMF1 and AMF2.  3 spins of it would give us around 105 figures so we can fill the infantry on two army packs and keep some for spares or mail orders.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Steve J on 09 December 2019, 07:56:06 PM
QuoteI know that feeling!  With the stand, accommodation, fuel and food, on top of the base production and overhead costs of the business, we need to take £7500 at Salute just to break even.  We've managed to hit that twice in the past 10 years...

Blimey, you can see why some traders have stopped going to shows, offering online discounts and/or free P&P instead.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 09 December 2019, 08:36:53 PM
I've typically assembled a wish list in advance, then placed the order for collection at a handy "Local" show.

While I do a bit of impulse buying as well (Stuff I know will be present like painting sticks and brushes), I've rarely felt the need for an unscheduled figure purchase.
I don't know whether I match the profile of a typical customer, but with me, figure purchases are planned in detail, while tools and accessories are the afterthoughts.

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 09 December 2019, 09:39:33 PM
Quote from: Steve J on 09 December 2019, 07:56:06 PM
Blimey, you can see why some traders have stopped going to shows, offering online discounts and/or free P&P instead.

We have not even touched on the costs of loss of production for at least one and probably several days in order to attend the show.  Leon did break this down once, I cannot remember it all but for Salute it was at least:-

Friday - load van, Drive to London, (5 hours Driving time ) Stay overnight
Saturday - Show - (10 hour day at least). Stay overnight
Sunday Drive back to Middlesbrough (5 hours Driving time)
Monday- Unload van and collapse exhausted.

So a very full four days.  No weekend off and two working days of production lost as a minimum
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Sandinista on 10 December 2019, 07:27:32 AM
Quote from: Leon on 09 December 2019, 06:26:39 PM
I know that feeling!  With the stand, accommodation, fuel and food, on top of the base production and overhead costs of the business, we need to take £7500 at Salute just to break even.  We've managed to hit that twice in the past 10 years...

No wonder many manufacturers don't go

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 10 December 2019, 07:40:20 AM
£7,500 ?....That's an awful lot of dosh !!  :o :o :o

Though, I imagine, it's a way of (hopefully) attracting new customers, that aren't familiar with Pendraken's figures ?  :-\

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Chad on 10 December 2019, 11:39:10 AM
Apart from the costs associated with shows, i would imagine that Pendraken do not hold substantial stocks other than possibly good sellers and would probably focus on make to order in many areas. Producing the amount of stock in individual packs for a show where you have no guaranteed sales in quantity would be inefficient use of production time and the possibility of resulting high stock levels remaining is a recipe for financial problems.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 10 December 2019, 11:57:54 AM
Quote from: Chad on 10 December 2019, 11:39:10 AM
Apart from the costs associated with shows, i would imagine that Pendraken do not hold substantial stocks other than possibly good sellers and would probably focus on make to order in many areas. Producing the amount of stock in individual packs for a show where you have no guaranteed sales in quantity would be inefficient use of production time and the possibility of resulting high stock levels remaining is a recipe for financial problems.

Hence the recent clearance sale
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Chad on 10 December 2019, 07:50:32 PM
Orcs

The normal solution to such a problem
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 11 December 2019, 07:19:14 AM
Though they could always go back into the 'melting pot'.....But I don't think Leon does that.
(I'm pretty sure he only uses 'virgin' white metal to cast up the wee men.)

Cheers - Phil
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 11 December 2019, 10:21:28 PM
Quote from: Techno on 11 December 2019, 07:19:14 AM
Though they could always go back into the 'melting pot'.....But I don't think Leon does that.
(I'm pretty sure he only uses 'virgin' white metal to cast up the wee men.)

Cheers - Phil



I believe the issue with putting them back into the melting pot is twofold

1. Additional wear on the production mould for no benefit. 
2 The wee men may well have release agent on them that will form a dross on the top of the molten lead that will need to be skimmed off wasting metal.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Techno on 12 December 2019, 07:27:48 AM
Good points, Mark  :).....Though that didn't stop the original owner of Alternative Armies of melting down a load of old Citadel models that he'd accrued, and using those for some of the original run of figures.

(At least, that's what he told me.)

Cheers - Phil  ;)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: petercooman on 12 December 2019, 08:33:16 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 11 December 2019, 10:21:28 PM

I believe the issue with putting them back into the melting pot is twofold

1. Additional wear on the production mould for no benefit.  
2 The wee men may well have release agent on them that will form a dross on the top of the molten lead that will need to be skimmed off wasting metal.

You forgot the wasted cost of the time casting them the first time!
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 12 December 2019, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: Techno on 12 December 2019, 07:27:48 AM
Good points, Mark  :).....Though that didn't stop the original owner of Alternative Armies of melting down a load of old Citadel models that he'd accrued, and using those for some of the original run of figures.

(At least, that's what he told me.)

Cheers - Phil  ;)


I think a lot of manufacturers do this. Sometimes the higher lead content in old figures actually improves the flow and detail.

I sold a lot of old broken  figures from a late friends collection by the kilo on ebay to people casting their own and had no problem selling it. 
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Spartan on 16 August 2021, 01:28:37 AM
- Do you ever ask for discount on your gaming goodies?

>>>>>>> Yes, if i am considering making significant purchase as a single order or over time.

- Is there a certain value of order that you expect a discount on?  (Over £50, over £100, etc)

>>>>>>> Generally i would say > £200, even if its free postage.

- Should a discount be expected on larger orders?

Yes.

Although not fully aware of the statitics of order values placed with manufacturers, it has been mentioned by a number that the average order value is around £70. Consequently due to economies of scale and ease of dealing with a single customer rather than a number i have the expectation that if i placed an order of say £1000-2000 that i would definatly recieve a discount. 

i think this also is good for the manufacturer. To explain further when i used to regularly purchase 28mm figures one of the deciding factors to go with Front Rank over Perrys was the discount structure.

Discounts also have a tendancy to increase my, and perhaps others, order values. Two years ago i purchased £1k of figures at a 20% discount from a manufacturer, last year £2k at a 25% discount, due to the discount structure this year i am considering an £3k order at a 30% discount.



- How much discount makes it worthwhile?

> Depends on the order level but at a guess 10% or more.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: chrishanley on 17 August 2021, 11:34:00 PM
I think Leon should be asking why should Pendraken give a discount? Tesco's do not offer discounts for charitable reasons. John Lewis do not put something in the sale because they are feeling generous. There will be a good, sound commercial reasons why a store will have 'special' offers.

I cannot remember the details, but a few years ago Leon wanted to shift some figures which were in the wrong packs (or something, I can't remember) and to save the hassle of re-packaging or whatever it was, there was a buy one get one free type of offer. That makes perfect sense.

So unless there is a good commercial reason, for example to shift unwanted out of date stock, persuade customers to buy a new range, loyalty cards to stop someone from going to 10mm R Us, then a discount only hurts the bottom line. A threshold discount might persuade someone to buy a bit more to qualify for the free postage, but such thing should only be made permanent policy after a trial period to see if it increases sales.

Haggling is what you do with a second-hand car salesman and as I do not see Leon in those terms, the thought of haggling for my 10mm fix is very distasteful. Wargamers are spending their beer money. Those who are providing the figures are doing it for a living, and long may that continue.

Chris
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 18 August 2021, 08:49:40 AM
Quote from: Spartan on 16 August 2021, 01:28:37 AM

To explain further when i used to regularly purchase 28mm figures one of the deciding factors to go with Front Rank over Perrys was the discount structure.


Front Rank  is now up for sale and unless a buyer is found will no longer be trading. While I am fairly sure the discount structure was not to blame. The reduced profit margins showing on its accounts by giving the discounts will make it look less interesting to possible purchasers, and if not bought we will loose a fine range of figures

Also of note it has an incredibly high level of stock (some 25,000 figures). Another reasom perhaps for the discounts.

Quote from: Spartan on 16 August 2021, 01:28:37 AM
-
Discounts also have a tendancy to increase my, and perhaps others, order values. Two years ago i purchased £1k of figures at a 20% discount from a manufacturer, last year £2k at a 25% discount, due to the discount structure this year i am considering an £3k order at a 30% discount.


Discounts on that level leave very little for the manufacturer, and i would prefer the companies I buy from to still be around in 5,10 or even 15 years when I want another unit or to replace broken figures, than a bit of discount now.


Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 August 2021, 10:46:51 AM
Well I just took advantage of the TSS BOGOF .
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Spartan on 18 August 2021, 11:13:48 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 18 August 2021, 08:49:40 AM
The reduced profit margins showing on its accounts by giving the discounts will make it look less interesting to possible purchasers.

IMHO i doubt the use of discounts would necessarily make it less interesting to buyers. In the case i sited the discount was what made me go with FrontRank rather than Perry's. I estimate that I purchased £12k of figures from FrontRank in the next 2 1/4 years. If the discount structure was not in place i  would of gone with the other supplier.

Quote from: Orcs on 18 August 2021, 08:49:40 AM
Discounts on that level leave very little for the manufacturer, and i would prefer the companies I buy from to still be around in 5,10 or even 15 years

Without naming the company, i am pretty sure that they will still be around in 5, 10 or 15 years if they wish :-)

I am of the opinion that volume discounts are pretty standard practice across a wide range of businesses.

Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Orcs on 18 August 2021, 11:42:34 AM
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 August 2021, 10:46:51 AM
Well I just took advantage of the TSS BOGOF .

There is reason for the TTS BOGOFF.  He has an excess of materials that he cannot use.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 18 August 2021, 12:09:48 PM
I think the level of discount is something for each company to decide on and will obviously depend on their overheads and margins.  A non-VAT registered 28mm company casting from home is probably on a 70-80% margin and has a lot more wriggle room to play with.  For a smaller scale company like us with premises, VAT and staff it's a lot more difficult and our margins are less than 15% now.  So any discounting beyond that level and we're losing money on the sale.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: sean66 on 18 August 2021, 12:23:57 PM
I feel the problem with pricing and even discounts is, no one really knows the company's overheads.
I feel a 15-20% profit margin after all other costs is a fair pricing structure.
70-80% Profit Margin is a wrong in my opinion. I also feel that having that type of profit margin and then
Heavily discounting it gives a false impression of your figures values.
Most high street stores when they start into the heavy Discounting circle (outside of normal sales periods)
soon disappear from our streets.
Regards
Sean
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 18 August 2021, 01:24:53 PM
Quote from: Orcs on 18 August 2021, 11:42:34 AM
There is reason for the TTS BOGOFF.  He has an excess of materials that he cannot use.

Still good stuff though and since Deeside defenders split up (non acrimonious, Airbus pulled the venue down) we have very little terrain.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Spartan on 18 August 2021, 01:50:53 PM
Quote from: sean66 on 18 August 2021, 12:23:57 PM
I feel the problem with pricing and even discounts is, no one really knows the company's overheads.
I feel a 15-20% profit margin after all other costs is a fair pricing structure.
70-80% Profit Margin is a wrong in my opinion.

As a believer in a relatively free market economy, the potential customers decision is limited too how much of X to buy from Y at what price & over what timescale. Hence knowledge and judgement of various forms of profit isn't required :-) :-)

If 70-80% is EBITDA, this is very high so am assuming that its Gross Margin, this level is almost a pre requesit for most businesses.  Personally i would not consider 30% a discount high as to my knowledge upto 45% discounts are available in the hobby.

As leon says its up to each company to decide its pricing policy :-)
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Leon on 18 August 2021, 04:59:01 PM
Quote from: Spartan on 18 August 2021, 01:50:53 PM
If 70-80% is EBITDA, this is very high so am assuming that its Gross Margin, this level is almost a pre requesit for most businesses.  Personally i would not consider 30% a discount high as to my knowledge upto 45% discounts are available in the hobby.

Depending on the company/genre that 70-80% would be net margin, so quite a tidy profit level.  A 28mm metal figure costs around 30-40p to produce (inc. labour) so if you're retailing them at £1.50 a piece there's some real money to be made.  Working from home your only other outgoings would be website hosting, banking/payment fees, postage costs and stationary.  Maybe some utilities if you're putting a portion of electricity and phone costs through the business.  Obviously there's some variance in that if you have someone else sculpt your figures, or if you use a contract-caster, etc. 

One of the downsides of smaller figures from a business perspective is the labour aspect of production becomes a much higher percentage of your costs as the scale comes down.  A 28mm mould with 15-ish figures in it is producing over £20 per spin, whereas a 10mm mould with 30-ish figures in it is only producing £5.50 per spin.  So your £10 per hour worker can make £300 worth of 28's per hour, or £80 worth of 10's.  As a result our gross margin is somewhere around 55% of RRP, way below what you'd be wanting in Dragon's Den!

The ideal wargames business would be sculpting, moulding and casting your own stuff, working from home, and making 28mm Sci-Fant figures with a £4-£5 retail price on them.  Net margins on that would potentially be over 90% and leaves a lot of room for discounting.

Funnily enough on the metal itself, the metal for 10mm figures is actually more expensive than the metal used for most 28mm's, due to the extra additives needed for smaller cavities and flow rates.  The metal used by most of the big historical wargames companies is the same GW alloy from the 1990's and is about 30% cheaper than the one we use.  There are some of the higher-end companies though who use a 'lead-free' pewter that's about double the GW alloy, so they're at the top end of metal pricing.
Title: Re: Discounts?
Post by: Last Hussar on 18 August 2021, 05:37:03 PM
You're forgetting the one off fixed costs in that. There will be caster and mold costs upfront.  Don't do yourself down.