Ottomans for Austro-Turkish War 1716–18

[doctorphalanx]

There's no problem with the Austrians, but is it possible to put together a Turkish army for this period from existing Pendraken figures?

There was some discussion here http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2044.msg17294.html#msg17294

The Janissaries and Tartars from the Renaissance range should be fine, but I'm wondering if there are any suitable figures for (1) unarmoured cavalry with swords, lances and pistols, and (2) other musket-armed infantry. These seem to be the main additional ingredients needed.

[doctorphalanx]

Since posting this I see Baccus have started a range of Ottoman Turks specifically for the early 18thC but so far it includes only Janissaries. I'm also aware of the possibility of doing this in 20mm plastics.

[Hwiccee]

I have also been looking at doing this era (and also 1711 against the Russians).

I don't think the cavalry will be much trouble - but this depends a little on which unarmoured types you are trying to depict? I was planning to mix in some of the available unarmoured cavalry - the Dellis, Tartars, Cossacks for example - with the existing sipahi/silhidar figures for the main body of the cavalry. But generally just paint over any armour/'trim' on the Sipahi/Silhidar figures.

The Thirty Years War mounted croats might also be useful.

The other musket armed troops are more of a problem. I haven't seen them but I am hoping that the mercenary Tufecki will do for these. Also I think that SYW Austrian Grenzer types will be OK. Their uniforms are based on Balkan dress of the period and so should be OK if painted right - again you could 'trim' a little to make them less regular looking. It is possible that the Russian SYW Pandours and Renaissance Polish Hajduk could also be used/mixed in but again I have not seen them so it is difficult to be sure.

I think it is 'doable' with a bit of compromise and imagination. A big problem is that basically little is known about what the real troops actually looked like but this problem can also be a help as you can use 'best guesses'.

[Sandinista]

The other musket armed troops are more of a problem. I haven't seen them but I am hoping that the mercenary Tufecki will do for these. Also I think that SYW Austrian Grenzer types will be OK. Their uniforms are based on Balkan dress of the period and so should be OK if painted right - again you could 'trim' a little to make them less regular looking. It is possible that the Russian SYW Pandours and Renaissance Polish Hajduk could also be used/mixed in but again I have not seen them so it is difficult to be sure.

All those work well in the forces I use to fight friends Russians and Austrians

[doctorphalanx]

Yes, in 10mm 'conversion by painting' is possible!

I've only just started collecting books and illustrations and I know that sources are thin on the ground so some imagination is needed.

The impression I get is that most non-Janissary Turkish infantry and Turkish cavalry had long coats and 'exaggerated' turbans. Balkan and other non-Turk infantry would have had other styles.

[Hwiccee]

The thing to remember is that styles of dress, with some exceptions, was up to the individual soldier and/or the provincial commander (or similar) who raised/commanded the unit. Also the units came from a wide area with different climates, traditions, etc. So there could be massive variety within units and between units of the same type from a gaming point of view.

Also at this time there were only really 2 kinds of infantry used in the field, at least against European opponents - Janissaries and mercenary musket armed troops of various types from the Balkans.

[doctorphalanx]

This earlier discussion may be helpful:

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3932.msg45297.html#msg45297

It's very frustrating that so many figure types lack pictures in the Pendraken shop and can't be found elsewhere on the web!!! Even at shows one only sees army packs...Pendraken is really underselling itself here.

On the plus side this project is looking increasingly doable, but I'd be happier if I could see OT13 and some other packs before ordering. Otherwise it's a bit of a lottery.

My interest here is in doing armies for Maurice. The 18thC can be rather predictable, hence my interest in Ottomans.

[Ithoriel]

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2119.60

2nd & 3rd entries on page 5 are entered as Ottoman Tufekci Musketeers

Can anyone confirm that those are indeed the figures from OT13?

[sunjester]

Stop this discussion NOW!

I've just talked myself out of building a 18th Century Ottoman army and now you lot are putting the bad thoughts into my head again....Oh Shiny!

[doctorphalanx]

The figures captioned as Ottoman Tufekci Musketeers look ideal.

Now, are there any pictures of OT3 and, if possible, OT1 and OT2?

[Hwiccee]

Yes the pictures of the Tufecki are very useful. I am less sure about the information from the SYW Ottomans post. Some of this doesn't seem to correspond with the information I have.

I have planned to get the Ottomans for some time. I have the Russians for the GNW  and I am building Austrians for the WSS, so I want the Ottomans as alternative opponents for these.

I am going for the following -

Sipahi: I will use the OT3 and OT4 packs for these. Basically at this time good troops have no/less armour and no/less 'old fashioned' weapons (lances, bows). So the elite household units (often called Sipahi of the Porte or Kapakula) I will paint over most of the armour and chop off most of the lances and as many of the shields as possible. For the better units (Europeans) I will similar but say about half. For the worst units (the Asian/Africans) I will leave them as they are or only 'convert' a few. I base my cavalry in groups of 5 on a base so I will have say 1 or 2 lances on an Elite base, 3 or 4 on an average base and all 5 on a poor base.

Tartars: The OT7 tartars obviously.

Moldovian/Wallachians: A mixture of OT6, YW4TYW  Mounted Croats, P13 Polish Dragoons and STA14 Austrian SYW hussars - I will 'convert many of these - i.e. chop off plumes, lances , etc.

Segbans: YW4 from the Thirty Years War range.

Janissaries: OT9 and OT14

Levands/Arnauts: mainly OT13 with some SYA25 Austrian grenzers

Artillery: OT15, 17 and 18

That is all you need I think.

[doctorphalanx]

@Hwiccee

The only detailed work I have at the moment is Richard D Watts' 'The Ottoman Turkish Army of the 18th Century'. This mentions lances quite a lot, and also shields, so I might be less inclined to remove these.

I understand there was an artillery reform but not till 1732 so I suppose the Renaissance artillery may be more appropriate for anything before that date.

I don't know what OT3 looks like, but some of OT4 have barded horses. Do you think they are still appropriate?

[Sandinista]

You can mix in some of the polish hussars too as the wings are seperate

[Hwiccee]

@doctorphalanx

Richard D Watts' 'The Ottoman Turkish Army of the 18th Century': I am afraid it is difficult to say how reliable this is as he doesn't give much in the way of sources. He has clearly used some of the Western guides to the Ottoman army dating to the later part of the 17th century and reprinted during the 18th century. These kinds of works contain all kinds of troops from the period of the original publication and earlier but with little indication of usage. So many of the troops covered are obsolete types or support troops or just not used in the field, at least in Europe. Quite a lot of this work covers these types of units which basically didn't exist or feature in this period, at least in European field actions. He also repeats the old idea of Ottoman hordes.

As far as I can tell there were a lot of troop types around armed/equipped with old fashioned weapons, shields, armour, etc. But a lot of these were not actually field troops or were not present in any kinds of numbers in Europe at least. Some of the cavalry that did fight was certainly equipped with lance, shields and other 'old fashioned' stuff, at least in theory. But whether they actually used them in action is more questionable and certainly efficient/good cavalry didn't. Sword, pistols and carbines were the weapons of choice and widely available. Asian and other backwater parts of the empire were criticised for using old equipment and being basically rubbish. It is a similar story in other similar armies.

Because of the way the army was I am sure every unit would have some guys who choose to use lance/shield/armour but equally some would also use sword/pistols/carbine. Good troops used the modern stuff as it was better.

Artillery: The reforms of 1732 were short lived and had little real impact, other than being the first attempt. Until the 1770 the artillery was more like renaissance artillery than 18th century but then Western artillery in the early part of the 18th century was also basically the same as 17th century artillery. But the Ottoman guns were always bigger and heavier than similar guns and western artillery changed rapidly in the mid 18th century.

Bard: I would guess not generally. Although again the backwater troops probably would be more inclined to do so and I would guess there would be a good chance of  some people in all units might do. Like you I am at the planning stage of the army (I asked about Janissaries about a week ago) and haven't actually seen the figures yet. So I am not sure what would be best.

I hope this is of some help but I will repeat I don't think anyone really knows here on weapons, dress, etc - we are in 'best guess' territory. But the types I mentioned do seem to be the only ones that actually took to the field.

[doctorphalanx]

@Hwiccee

Thanks for your detailed response.

What sources would you recommend?

If the regular Sipahi approximated to European style, i.e. sword and pistol, the Renaissance Sipahi are not a very good starting point. You would have to cut away a lot of lances and shields but wouldn't end up with 'animated' swordsmen.