Byzantines in the first crusade

[jchaos79]

Hi,

Just toying with the idea of preparing the battle of Dorilea, during the first crusade (1098 more or less). Frankish army would have some units of their byzantine allies.

Could you recommend me the more popular/characteristic troops of byzantine?

And also I am very interested in the pendraken codes that could represent those kind of troops.

Have some ideas:

Armenian archers: not really bizantines, but lots of them were christians and they were famous, so why do not use them.   --> pendraken figures= anglosaxon archers??
byzantine infantry
cataphracts. --> pendraken figure= maybe sasanid persian??  or some of the late roman range??

Any ideas are very welcome

[DanJ]

I played Doryleum using Warmaster Ancients a year or so ago, the sides were just over 3000 points each (which is a big WMA game) and I gave the Byzantine contingent of the Crusaders 1 Leader, 1 Heavy Cavalry, 2 Light Cavalry, 4 Heavy Infantry and 2 Skirmish Infantry, this repressented about 20% of the Crusders in terms of points.

Unfortunately Pendraken don't do any late Byzantines but you might be able to use late Romans at a pinch.  About the only thing you need to avoid is the bow armed clibanari as the Byzantine heavy cavalry had lost its bow by the late 11th century (very careles if you ask me).

[jchaos79]

Any chance of view some pics of the battle?

3000 WMA is a huge battle indeed. Which armylist do you use for the battle?

If you lead the byzantine armieside I guess you take the role of Taticio, a sarracene, son of a slave, and eager leader who earn the title of "Primokeros". Taticio has his nose chopped off as sign of his very first days when he was a slave. Also veteran of the balcans against the normands and also veteran of the raids agains the Pechenegros Turks.

Thanks for the info about the lost of the bow.

I just notice some odd things about the armylist of kingdom of Jerusalem. I posted here  http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3896.0 
@DanJ I will appreciate any comment about them

[DanJ]

We played the game before the Medieval book came out and I wrote my own army lists based on my interpretations of the First Crusade.

CRUSADER ARMY

There is no overall commander of the Christian forces, each Prince, Duke or Lord jealously defending his prerogatives, especially the right to command of his own men.

VANGUARD

Bohemond of Taranto          General      9 Cmd   (Bohemond causes terror )      150 pts

Stephen of Blois         Leader      8 Cmd                  80 pts
Robert of Flanders         Sub-Leader   8 Cmd                  40 pts

4 Units of Knights                              440 pts
2 Unit Retainers (LC)                              120 pts
2 Unit of Skirmish Cavalry                             80 pts

6 Units of Spearmen                              270 pts
3 Units of Archers                              120 pts
4 Units of Pilgrims (2 Attacks,2 Hits & 0 Armour Save, 15pts each)                                                60 pts

Tatikios of Byzantium (Commander Byzantine contingent)      Leader      8 Cmd        80 pts

1 Units of Kavalaroi      Heavy Cavalry                     110 pts
2 Unit of Light Kavalaroi   Light Cavalry                     120 pts
4 Units of Kontaratoi      Heavy Infantry                     240 pts
2 Unit of Psilio         Skirmish Infantry                    60 pts

"It's all Greek to me!" Special rule:~   Any Frankish commander attempting to command Byzantine troops suffers a -1 penalty and Tatikios sufferers a similar -1 penalty when attempting to order any Frankish troops.

STRAGGLERS

Baldwin of Boulogne         Sub-Leader   8 Cmd                    40 pts

2 Units of Spearmen                                90 pts
4 Units of Camp followers   (2 Attacks,2 Hits & 0 Armour Save, 15pts each)           60 pts

REARGUARD

Raymond of Toulouse         General      9 Cmd       (Blessing of the Legate)      135 pts
Robert of Normandy         Sub-Leader   8 Cmd                    40 pts

5 Units of Knights                              550 pts
3 Units of Retainers (Light Cavalry)                        180 pts
2 Unit of Skirmish Cavalry                             80 pts

Godfrey of Bouillon         Leader       8 Cmd                    80 pts

4 Units of Spearmen                              180 pts
3 Units of Archers                              120 pts

ARMY TOTAL                                 3525 pts

Army Break Point

The Crusaders have 47 units which count towards their break point, the army will break after loosing 24.


SELJUK ORDERS

Right Flank

Emir         Leader         8 Cmd        80 points
Bey         Leader         8 Cmd        40 points

1 Unit Seljuk Heavy Cavalry               115 points
8 Units Turkoman Horse Archers            640 points



Centre

Sultan         General         9 Cmd      125 points
Bey         Sub Leader      8 Cmd        80 points

3 Units Seljuk Heavy Cavalry               345 points
8 Units Turkoman Horse Archers            640 points



Left Flank

Emir         Leader         8 Cmd        80 points
Bey         Sub Leader      8 Cmd        40 points

1 Unit Seljuk Heavy Cavalry               115 points
8 Units Turkoman Horse Archers            640 points


Shadowing Force

Bey         Sub-Leader      8 Cmd        40 points

2 Units Turkoman Horse Archers            160 points


ARMY TOTAL                           3,140 points

Army Break Notes

The Seljuk Light Cavalry is classed as Light Cavalry Horse Archers with a range of 30cm BUT they only have 30cm when shooting to their front using the Infantry Archer shooting arc.  In all other circumstances e.g.shooting outside this arc, to their rear etc. they have a range of 15cm.

Seljuk Heavy Cavalry have a range of 15cm.

The Seljuks have 31 units which count towards their break point so the army will break after loosing 16


Here are a couple of pictures, unfortunately they're not Pendraken

Bohemond and his knights.

[jchaos79]

wwwoww.

That images are quite astonishing. I like your list. Thank you very much for sharing. When my proyect of las Navas will be ended (do not know exactly when) then I will start expanding them to dorileum. Not willing to use yor list as It is a huge project (I used to paint both armies, so it is a lot of work for me).

As I see the seljuk forces are compose only for cavalry, interesting. I need to read a little more about the battle.

Also I like the idea of not having a general because it represent the circumstance in the first crusade. I did not consider this possibility.

thanks again