Reconnaissance - Q6

Started by AJ at the Bank, 02 June 2019, 12:25:52 PM

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AJ at the Bank

Some (hopefully) final queries on Reconnaissance for clarification please -

(1) Reconnoitre (p31) - Referring to aerial Reece units -

     (a) Is the +1 penalty for distance to target meant to be for   >20cm ...rather than   '..up to 20cm'   please?
     (b) Hierarchy of modifiers : Do the modifiers get applied in the following order please? -
            (i)    Distance penalty (+1)
            (ii)   Double score for targets in woods/BUA
            (iii)  Height benefit (-1)
     If so correct that aerial Recce cannot Reconnoitre a target in woods/BUA > 20cm away. I.e. a die roll of (3 +1) x2 -1= 7 = too far? If up to 20cm then it would be 3x2-1 = 5...is that right please?


(2) Reconnaissance (p29-32)

     (a) Are Sniper Teams ignored by Reece units per all other Command Units please?
     (b) If Reece Units (or RSU acting as Reece) fail to Communicate or Reconnoitre - are they still marked Suppressed after Initiative Phase please?
     (c) Are Reece Units (or RSU acting as Reece) marked Suppressed after completing an Initiative Reece Action - subject to Fall Back if hit by damaging fire? If yes - a bit harsh - but is that the balance to these units being able to do a lot?

Thanks again
Adam
 
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

T-Square

I would like to see Mark's input on this.

I've looked at the last two lines in paragraph 3 on page 31.  As I read them the +1 modifier for targets under 20cm for spotter aircraft just removes the -1 modifier ground spotters get. 

I have one question; for units being spotted in woods or built up areas does "double the score" mean double the final modifier? (I think it does.). My examples below are based on that assumption.

As I read it the sentence "However, they always get a -1 for being higher than their target." only applies to units not in the woods or built up areas due to the statement on line 5 of the Modifier Table on page 30, "(unless target in built up area, woods, or forest)"

So for A.J.s example of an average profile unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
          -1 Target 0-20cm.
          +1 Aircraft spotting under 20cm.
          +1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
    Thus a  0 Modifier (-1 +1 +0 = 0)
    Target would be seen on a 5 or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover with 0 modifier)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 20-30cm:
           0 Target 20-30cm.
          +1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
    Thus a  0 Modifier ( 0 +0 = 0)
    Target would be seen on a 5 or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover[5-6] with 0 modifier)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 30-50cm:
          +1 Target at 30-50cm
          +1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
    Thus a  2 Modifier (+1 +0 = +1 then doubled for being in the woods and the recce behind airborne)
    Target would be seen on a 7+ [unable to be seen]  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with 2 modifier)

Now for a low profile or Infantry unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
          -1 Target 0-20cm.
          +1 Aircraft spotting under 20cm.
          +1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
          +1 Low profile unit
    Thus a  2 Modifier (-1 +1 +0 +1 = +1 then doubled for being in the woods and the recce behind airborne)
    Target would be seen on a 7+ [unable to be seen]  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with 2 modifier)

It's hard to see units in the woods from aircraft.



As far as A.J.s follow on questions:
   1.  Sniper units are classified as command units and thus cannot be used by any recon for spotting.  Snipers are two man units sneaking around and are skilled at camouflage and evasion.

   2.  Recces and RSUs that fail their attempt at a recce action are suppressed.  It is attempt to perform the action that counts towards the suppression.  This simulates that their action of attempting to communicate occurs throughout the turn.

   3.  Good question.  I would assume that a unit that has not been suppressed by enemy fire would first have to be suppressed by enemy fire before it would be forced to fall back or be knocked out by a suppressed unit falling back into contact with it.  That is the way I would play it.  As stated on page 32, paragraph 2, sentence 2; "This is to prevent players from commanding it in the Command Phase."  Thus the suppression marker is only a memory jog so the player realizes that that unit is doing something during the entire turn.

AJ at the Bank

02 June 2019, 06:15:52 PM #2 Last Edit: 02 June 2019, 06:29:11 PM by AJ at the Bank
Thanks T-square  -very helpful

Let me just check please ..

(a) In the Recconoitre Example - You think the Modifier chart on p30 applies to Reconnoitre rolls? Are you sure that isn't for Communication rolls only?

(b) Ref Reece units beeing marked as Suppressed ... I agree - Thats what am trying to draw out. I'd have thought the usual "Initiative Used" marker would have been sufficient here, but Suppressing the unit means it is v vulnerable to Fall Back if attacked.
Noting that p36 Fall back states that Reece can Fall back any distance without being KO'd.

However - Not great if - for example - you have a Sdkfz 234/4 Reece who is suppressed after a Reece initiative action ...and then attacked by enemy small arms Suppressing Fire!  

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

T-Square

AJ

I believe all recon rolls are communication type rolls.  Even if you are attempting to spot a unit you have to communicate back to a higher command that you have spotted it.  Otherwise the information is useless.

We use different colored small (5mm) dice and pony beads for marking units.  (We call call the pony beads pips.)
     -White dice for hits
     -Red die for suppressed hits
     -Green dice for number of moves a Recce unit has (just started doing this with BKC-IV
     -White pony beads for units that have used an opportunity fire or initiative action
     -Red pony beads for suppressed only units (jumped out of transport suppressed or suppressed by a unit falling back into them)
     -Yellow pony beads for Recce/RSUs that cannot receive additional orders. (I just made that command decision.  ;))


AJ at the Bank

Hmmmm - interesting T square - thank you...

But - I don't think you use the Modifier table on p30 for Reconnoitre.
I believe the top half of that table shows clearly it's for a different roll (Communication) vs the Reconnoitre roll, per 2nd paragraph on p31.
I've put up a separate post to seek clarification on how Reconnaissance works in summary

PS...Im fine with Reece getting Suppressed if thats how the playtesting showed it all balanced out. Its not that big a deal to Fall Back (any distance with Reece) as they are given the opportunity for multiple moves now.
By the same token - would have thought just as good to stick with Initiative Used, rather than Suppression.
Just better hope you dont bump into friendly units / impassable terrain etc!

PPS : Yes - we use dice and markers too.
Markers custom made by Litko of course !    :D ;)


In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

T-Square

02 June 2019, 08:18:36 PM #5 Last Edit: 02 June 2019, 08:21:38 PM by T-Square
Damn!  :o. You’re correct.  I got screwed up.  Should have read all of the section again.  Now, how do I delete that whole post?  I’m going to report myself to the moderator.

I can’t edit it now, too much time expired.  Can’t report myself the forum won’t allow it A.J. Can you report me and have the moderator delete that screwed up post?  Thanks.

T-Square

let me fix this then.  (When I screw up a do it well.)

I would like to see Mark's input on this.

I've looked at the last two lines in paragraph 3 on page 31.  As I read them the +1 modifier for targets under 20cm for spotter aircraft just removes the -1 modifier ground spotters get. 

I have one question; for units being spotted in woods or built up areas does "double the score" mean double the final modifier? (I think it does.)  Or does it apply to the die roll?  My examples below are based on the assumption the modifier gets doubled.

Communication Examples:

Trying to spot a unit in the woods.  This is to get the +1 CV to a command or allow a FAO/FAC to target a unit by using the Recce.

An average profile unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
          -1 Target 0-20cm.
          -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
    Thus a  -1 Modifier (-1 +0 = -1)
    Target would be reported on a 4, 5, or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5/6] with -1 modifier)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 20-30cm:
           0 Target 20-30cm.
          -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
    Thus a  0 Modifier ( 0 +0 = 0)
    Target would be reported on a 5 or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover[5-6] with 0 modifier)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 30-50cm:
          +1 Target at 30-50cm
           -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
    Thus a  +1 Modifier
    Target would be spotted on a 6  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with +1 modifier)

Now for a low profile or Infantry unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
          -1 Target 0-20cm.
          -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
          +1 Low profile unit
    Thus a  0 Modifier (-1 +1 = 0)
    Target would be reported on a 5 0r 6  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with 2 modifier)



Now to Reconnoiter units as paragraph 2 on page 31.

Units in the woods and the center of the area being reconnoitered:
Under 10cm. (Base of 1 but 1s always fail)
-  Modifiers to die roll = 0 (Could see on a roll of 2+)
     +1 Aircraft within 20 cm
      -1 For being higher

10 - 20cm (Base of 2)
  - Modifiers to die roll = 0 (Could see on a roll of 2+)
     +1 Aircraft within 20 m
     -1 For being higher

20 30cm (Base of 3)
  - Modifiers to die roll = -1 doubled for being in the woods so -2 (So could see on a 5+)
     -1 for being higher

This has got me thinking quite a bit about this.  It would be good to be able to hash it out in person.  (With favorite drink in hand.)

Now to await what Mark has to say.  I still might not have it correct.

Big Insect

Ok folks - this is not a single simple question ... so I will try and break it down and answer as best possible:

1) Aerial Recce - Page XX - it is a -1 under 20cm to represent the issues of a fast moving plane looking down at a target underneath it.

2). Aerial Recce will find it next to impossible to spot units in Woods or BUAs

3). Like all Command units - Snipers Teams are ignored for Recce, Artillery or Air strikes (e.g. cannot be targeted)

4). If a Recce (RSU) unit attempts an action and fails, it is marked as suppressed

5). If a Recce (RSU) unit undertakes any action at any time, it is marked as suppressed

I will pick up on the next set of questions after I've had my supper !

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Big Insect

part 2 - post supper ...

"As I read them the +1 modifier for targets under 20cm for spotter aircraft just removes the -1 modifier ground spotters get" ... CORRECT

Page 31 - 3rd paragraph down - last sentence reads: "Therefore add +1 to the score required by aerial reconnaissance units for targets up to 20cm away and double the score for targets in woods or BUAs"

So ... looking at T-squares examples I'll try and give answers (in Bold):

Communication Examples:

Trying to spot a unit in the woods.  This is to get the +1 CV to a command or allow a FAO/FAC to target a unit by using the Recce.

An average profile unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
         -1 Target 0-20cm.
         -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
   Thus a  -1 Modifier (-1 +0 = -1)
   Target would be reported on a 4, 5, or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5/6] with -1 modifier)
(CORRECT)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 20-30cm:
          0 Target 20-30cm.
         -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
   Thus a  0 Modifier ( 0 +0 = 0)
   Target would be reported on a 5 or 6.  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover[5-6] with 0 modifier)
(CORRECT)

For an average profile unit in the woods at 30-50cm:
         +1 Target at 30-50cm
          -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods)
   Thus a  +1 Modifier
   Target would be spotted on a 6  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with +1 modifier)
(CORRECT)

Now for a low profile or Infantry unit in the woods within 20cm of a recon aircraft the modifiers would be as follows:
         -1 Target 0-20cm.
         -1 Aircraft higher (ignored due to unit in woods.)
         +1 Low profile unit
   Thus a  0 Modifier (-1 +1 = 0)
   Target would be reported on a 5 or 6  (From table for unit in soft or partial cover [5-6] with 2 modifier)
(CORRECT)

Now to Reconnoiter units as paragraph 2 on page 31. NB: the table on Page 30 does not apply.
This is a different method of determining that a Recce unit can Reconnoitre; there are only three factors effecting the possibility to achieve a sucessful Reconnoitre
1) the distance to centre of the area being Reconnoitred
2). is the Recce unit an aerial unit under 20cms from the centre of the area being Reconnoitred
3). is the area being Reconnoitred a wood or BUA


Units in the woods and the center of the area being reconnoitered is Under 10cm. (Base of 1 but 1s always fail)
Modifiers to die roll are:
    +1 Aircraft within 20 cm
     -1 For being higher (cancelled as Recce is aerial)

+1 (base) +1 (Aircraft within 20cn (ignore being higher) = 2+ now double it as target is in Wood = 4+ to be sucessful

A). Unit in the wood and the center of the area being reconnoitered is Under 10cm. (Base of 1 but 1s always fail)
Modifiers to die roll are:
    +1 Aircraft within 20 cm
     -1 For being higher
Result
1+ (base) +1 (Aircraft within 20cm) +0 (ignore being higher) = 2+ now double it as target is in Wood = 4+ to be successful

B.). Units in the woods and the center of the area being reconnoitered is between 10cm & 20cm. (Base of 2)
Modifiers to die roll are:
        +1 Aircraft within 20cm
         -1 For being higher
Result
2+ (base) no other modifiers  = 2+ now double it as target is in Wood = 4+ to be successful

C). Units in the woods and the center of the area being reconnoitered is 20cm - 30cms away. (Base of 3)
Modifiers to die roll are:
          -1 For being higher (now applies as unit is over 20cms away)
Result
3+ (base) -1 higher = 2+ now double it as target is in Wood = 4+ to be successful

D) Units in the woods and the center of the area being reconnoitered is 30cm - 40cms away. (Base of 4)
Modifiers to die roll are:
          -1 For being higher (now applies as unit is over 20cms away)
Result
4+ (base) -1 higher = 3+ now double it as target is in Wood = 6 to be successful

Over 40cms it is impossible for an Aerial recce to reconnoitre a wood or BUA

Does that help clarify things?
Mark








'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

T-Square


Big Insect

Aerial units are much better at reconnoitreing low area terrain like fields of crops and spotting Low profile troops in them.
Woods and Towns are generally pretty difficult for all Recce to reconnoitre from pretty much any distance except close up.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

AJ at the Bank

Thank you Mark - that clarity really does help...

Hierarchy of modifiers is :-
            (i)    Distance penalty (+1)
            (ii)   Height benefit (-1)
            (iii)  Double score for targets in woods/BUA


Checking query - On your helpful Reconnoitre Example (A) ..
Why ignore the -1 modifier for being higher as aerial please?

If not ignoring - the answer would be 2+ to be successful? E.g. 1 Base +1 Distance Penalty, -1 Height Benefit, Doubled = 2?
Many thanks
Adam
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Big Insect

You ignore the Height benefit if the Aerial Recce is within 20cm of the target point within the Wood or BUA
So under 20cm you do not get the -1, over 20cm you get the -1
Does that make sense?
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

AJ at the Bank

08 June 2019, 10:18:35 PM #13 Last Edit: 08 June 2019, 11:49:34 PM by AJ at the Bank
Really sorry - No. Befuddled

Rule on p31 is ..
"...add +1 to the score required by aerial reconnaissance units for targets up to 20cm away and double the score for targets in woods or BUAs. However, they always get a -1 for being higher than their target."

In an example where aerial reconnoitre is under 10cm to target in wood...

Base 1 : add +1 for distance : add -1 for being higher : Double score as in woods. In this order...
i.e. 1+1-1 = 1 ...then double = 2


What am I doing wrong? Sorry!
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Big Insect

09 June 2019, 07:36:58 AM #14 Last Edit: 09 June 2019, 07:45:55 AM by Big Insect
"INTO HIGH AREA TERRAIN" or a Tale of 3 Recce Units.

Once upon a time there were 3 Recce units. One on a hill overlooking a wood, One in a recce aircraft, and the third on the ground. Each was tasked with reconnoitering a patch of woodland.

Scenario A: 0 to 10cm
1). Aerial – Base = +1,
Height -1
Aerial +1 (as the aircraft is under 20cm from target)
Sub-total = 1 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 2+ required
2). Higher Ground – Base = +1,
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable)
Sub-total = 0 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 0 (minimum score 2+ as a 1 is always a fail)
3). On the Ground – Base = +1
Height (not applicable)
Aerial (not applicable)
Sub-total = 1 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 2+ required

Scenario B: 10cm+ to 20cm
1). Aerial – Base +2
Height -1
Aerial +1 (as the aircraft is under 20cm from target)
Sub-total = 2 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 4+ required
2). Higher Ground – Base +2
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable)
Sub-total = 1 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 2+ required
3). On the Ground – Base +2
Height (not applicable)
Aerial (not applicable)
Sub-total = 2 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 4+ required

Scenario C: 20cm+ to 30cm
1). Aerial – Base +3
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 2 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 4+ required
2). Higher Ground – Base +3
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 2 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 4+ required
3). On the Ground – Base +3
Height (not applicable)
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 3 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 6 required

Scenario D: 30cm+ to 40cm
1). Aerial – Base +4
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 3 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 6 required
2). Higher Ground – Base +4
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 3 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 6 required
3). On the Ground – Base +4
Height (not applicable)
Aerial (not applicable)
Sub-total = 4 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 8 required - Impossible to acquire enemy

Scenario E:  40cm+ to 50cm
1). Aerial – Base +5
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 5 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 8 required – Impossible to acquire enemy
2). Higher Ground – Base +5
Height -1
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 2 x 4 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 8 required – Impossible to acquire enemy
3). On the Ground – Base +5
Height (not applicable)
Aerial (not applicable over 20cm)
Sub-total = 5 x 2 (double for target in HAT)
Total = 10 required – Impossible to acquire enemy

Acquiring an enemy target in a HAT is very difficult

So .... hopefully that helps AJ?

You could have a go at doing the same thing where the target is not in HAT (if you like) ...  :)

Thanks
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.