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Author Topic: Infantry Recce Support and Other Recce Support Units  (Read 510 times)
T-Square
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« on: 01 June 2019, 12:02:13 AM »

The army lists donít have Infantry Recce Support units listed.  I can see Infantry Platoons being used as RSUs for Infantry Scout units.  Should we have them in the Army Lists?

Points for these units:  The tables are interesting for pointing Recce Scout units.  US Scouts are 10 points more than a regular Platoon, while other Armies the Scouts are 20 points more than a regular Platoon.  Since the RSUs are less capable than Scouts I think adding 1/2 the point difference between the Scout Platoon and regular Platoon is appropriate.  So for US this would be 5 points and for others it would be 10 points.

Points for other RSUs:  it seems that vehicles used for Recce are 20 points more than their normal counterparts.  Thus I think that RSUs should be 10 points more than their counterparts since they are less capable than full Recces.

Mark, am I correct in my point analysis?
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Big Insect
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« Reply #1 on: 01 June 2019, 09:20:28 PM »

A good compromise T-square
All full Recce should be 20pts added to the normal unit
RSUs should add 10pts

TBF the points went a bit array as we moved units between BKCIII and IV and added in Recce support.
Hence why some of the ordinary A/C units are far too expensive as they have retained both the Recce cost and the cost for Independant unit - which is another 20pts if not a Recce unit.

It's an error we will correct once we start with the Errata in the Lists.
RSU will also be added where it is missing.

I played a game on Thursday evening with a US Armoured Recon v Afrika Korp and the Yanks got murdered. It didn't help that the US HQ took 4 moves to get his force (half the units) on table and then most of they died to a well aimed German 10.5cm artillery concentration. Hey ho.

Cheers
Mark
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T-Square
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« Reply #2 on: 01 June 2019, 10:02:13 PM »

Mark,

Thanks.  Now I can get my XL Spreadsheet working better for putting together armies.

Keep smiling,

Terry
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sultanbev
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« Reply #3 on: 14 June 2019, 03:18:50 PM »

Recce Support Units - what does that actually mean?
I had assumed it mean't things like mortar, MMG, assualt engineers/infnatry, ATG platoons that are within real-world recce battalions, ie heavy weapons that support recce units, but the rule definition is:
"Recce Support Units are normal units that have additional special recce abilities and can direct artillery support via a FAC/FAO."

Is there a real world example of such a thing? What is this trying to represent?

Mark
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Big Insect
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« Reply #4 on: 14 June 2019, 03:30:50 PM »

Yes - US Armoured Recon Companies immediately comes to mind.

Nice tidy little formation - made up of White Armoured Car's each carrying an Infantry (Carbine) Recce squad - supported by Jeeps with 0.50cals and other jeeps carrying 81mm mortars that were fired dismounted. The Jeeps/0.50cals and Jeeps/mortars provided fire support, as did the A/Cs ,whilst the Infantry did the Recce bits.
At our level of abstraction it's easier to have each RSU able to either undertake a Recce action or behave an an 'ordinary' unit. But you can replicate it by using the White A/C out of the A/C section and put the Recce Infantry Scounts in it.
The idea was that they would conduct recce "in-force".

Some of the UK Armoured Car formations are actually Armoured Recon or RSU. There are also larger German recce formations where the various half-track variants and up-armed A/Cs supported a core Recce type unit.

I've found it fun to field RSU formations as a whole Battlegroup in a game, but equally you can use them as part of a wider more generic formation in a game.

Does that help?
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T-Square
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« Reply #5 on: 14 June 2019, 05:38:16 PM »

Iíve been putting a Recce vehicle along with 4 recce support vehicles under the CO for games.  It adds a lot of flavor to the game.  People are paying attention to recce, where they are and what they are doing.

Going to have to try the halftrack recce support vehicle with recce Infantry in it now.  Sounds interesting.  Thereís a lot that can be done with recce with these rules.  They ainít just for looking anymore.
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Big Insect
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« Reply #6 on: 14 June 2019, 05:55:58 PM »

I'm aware it is a whole new concept in the game, so maybe not easy to get your head around (at first) but I am glad you are enjoying it T-square and also experimenting with it as well.

Cheers
Mark
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sultanbev
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« Reply #7 on: 14 June 2019, 06:11:55 PM »

Not really, as that doesn't fit the definition quoted from the rule book. It's badly named too, should be called Recce Combat Units or Combat Recce Units if that's what you meant or some such.

All recce units could fight, and in certain armies that's all they actually were, eg a seventh or tenth combat battalion of a division or whatever. By your description ALL recce units can be RSU.
I would simplify and not have a distinction between recce units and recce support units, but simply allow all recce units (which do cost 20ptrs more than their equivalent none-recce version of the same thing) to be declared as Recce units or 'normal' combat units at the beginning of a turn, and they stay that way for the rest of the turn.

In my own rules we have a thing where recce units can go into Recce Mode, which allows them to spot beyond normal spotting ranges, attempt to evade fire on a successful CV roll, call in artillery at -1CV, but they move slower, cannot shoot or close assault. Whilst they are in Recce Mode, their CV doesn't go down one for each subsequent activation.

It would be useful to define what can be a recce unit. To my mind, it is any unit that is part of a designated Recce Battalion/Regiment/Squadron, Troop, Company or platoon. Additions might be the Panzer II platoons in early war German Panzer Battalions and Panzer Regiment HQs, and British Carrier Platoons.

Your example is not quite correct as to provide sufficient dismounts to carry out foot recce, they had to dismount the crews from the vehicles. The White S/C in the US Cavalry Troop was an interim supply as the M8 wasn't available, and only applied mid 1942-late 1943 anyway. Although it could carry 8 men it didn't have a squad allocated.
Each platoon had PHQ: 2 men, no transport
 2 Sections@ 18 men: 1x M3A1+ 3 crew, 1 Jeep/.50" + 2 crew, 2 Jeep/.30"+ 1 crew, 1 Jeep+ radio+ 2 crew, 1 M/C dispatch rider, leaving 8 riflemen as possible dismounts that also leaves the .30 Cals unmanned, or 6 dismounts if you want the .30" MGs manned.
1 Section: 1x 81mm mortar, 4 men in 2 Jeeps
1 Section: 4 men in 1 Jeep/.50" as demolition/pioneer squad
Thus the whole Troop of 3 platoons could only field 24 dismounts for scouting barely enough to field one model infantry stand in BKC.

If you read Osprey Elite 129 you'll find this was an issue, and they often had to dismount the armoured car crews to provide foot scouting.

Mark


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sultanbev
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« Reply #8 on: 14 June 2019, 11:43:27 PM »

When I'd first heard of Recce Support Units, I thought they would be, like you correctly identify, the combat support platoons that often are a part of recce battalions. For example, your AEC Mk.III or M3 H/T+75mm in British armoured car regiments, or their Assault Troop in C15TA armoured trucks or White Scout Cars, or German Sdkfz 250/7 and /8, and their PAK40 platoon, American M8 HMC Stuarts, and so on.
I then imagined that such RSU would have a use if you field a Recce CO, typically representing a recce battalion. This CO could then order say an armoured car company forward, which then locates things, which then allows the CO to then use the RSUs to fire on the targets that the recce then located. Perhaps as a bonus use the range from the recce unit to the target for accuracy purposes, to represent the recce unit correcting fire or some such, rather than the range from the RSU, as they are likely to be further away covering from a ridge or woodline or some such. If the RSU's don;t have line of sight to these newly located targets, then it would be the mortars (or M3 75mm GMC or whichever) could be called in to fire indirect at the target, but use the range from the recce unit for determining accuracy.
Or if the RSU is an infantry unit, it could be called forward to assault a position identified as held by the recce unit.

Alas I find you don't have Command rolls for recce units anyway, so this idea wouldn't quite work the same.

Mark
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sultanbev
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« Reply #9 on: 15 June 2019, 07:12:58 AM »

Meh, where's the edit button Angry
That should read:
Each platoon had PHQ: 2 men, no transport
 2 Sections@ 18 men: 1x M3A1+ 3 crew, 1 Jeep/.50" + 2 crew, 2 Jeep/.30"+ 1 crew, 1 Jeep+ radio+ 2 crew, 1 M/C dispatch rider, leaving 8 riflemen as possible dismounts that also leaves the .30 Cals unmanned, or 6 dismounts if you want the .30" MGs manned.
1 Section: 1x 81mm mortar, 4 men in 2 Jeeps
1 Section: 4 men in 1 Jeep/.50" as demolition/pioneer squad
Thus the whole Troop of 3 platoons could only field 48 dismounts for scouting, enough field one model infantry stand in BKC, perhaps two at a push, but with only rifles, or 36 men if you leave the Jeeps with .30" manned.
During 1944-45 this was worse as most only had M1 carbines rather than rifles.
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ianrs54
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« Reply #10 on: 15 June 2019, 07:46:49 AM »

But after late 43, with the availability of the M20 White Scouts were mostly withdrawn. The Jeeps carried 60mm mortars or 30 cals, and were the scouts with the M8's providing the extra fire support. In a Cavalry Rgt you also had the light tank company which would be recce support, and the M8 HMC's similarly. Only about 10% of US cavalry missions were Recce. There is an Osprey Elite by Gordon Rottmann coverinbg US recce tactics.

British - in a squadron the Armoured Car troops would be recce, the assault troop (weak infantry platoon) and heavy troop - 2 x AEC III, Staghound III or M3 GMC would be Recce support.

IanS
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Big Insect
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« Reply #11 on: 15 June 2019, 10:39:20 PM »

The need for Commanded orders with Recce is an interesting one Sultanbev. I think you can do all the things you describe below with the RSUs.

With a 'pure' Recce unit, the idea is that you roll to move your Recce at the start of the Command phase and they move a multiple of moves all at once in one turn. Or they undertake communication or reconnaissance actions. They operate more independently that RSUs.

With the RSUs they are Commanded, they move forward under orders, reach a specific point and then (next game turn) one (or more) of units in the formation can behave like a Recce unit.
Doing all that in a single Game turn made them into super troops.
You should be able to achieve more with an RSU formation (than just pure Recce) as you can designate one unit to act as Recce and boost the Command CV, another to act as recce & undertake Reconnoiter activities, and the rest to provide commanded fire power.

I'll do a game using the Armoured Recon force and report it back ... it's a 'fun' game IMHEx  Smiley
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T-Square
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« Reply #12 on: 17 June 2019, 04:43:41 AM »

Question/need for clarification:

Hereís the scenario:  Recce Infantry unit loaded up in a half-track (RSU).  During the initiative phase the Recce Infantry rolls for move and gets three moves to be used anytime before the CO moves.  During the command phase the CO orders the RSU to move carrying the Recce Infantry.  Letís say that the CO three successful successive commands to the RSU half-track.  Here are the questions:

1.  May the Recce Infantry dismount at any time the half-track stops?  (At the end of move 1, move 2, or move 3). (I think it can.). (Iím assuming that the Recce Infantry unit cannot dismount while the half-track is moving but only when it has stopped.)

2.  May the Recce Infantry unit then make its full move of three moves?  (I think it can.  But it could be an interesting debate.)

3.  Can a Recce Infantry unit use its Recce abilities while mounted in an RSU unit?  (I think it canít.  It makes that combination too powerful.)
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Big Insect
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« Reply #13 on: 17 June 2019, 02:26:30 PM »

All good questions.

A Recce Scout (Infantry) unit moves at the rate of the unit that is transporting it (generally it is better to select a Transport unit - a jeep or a truck - than an RSU, but an RSU can be used).
In effect, the Recce takes on the speed and characteristics of the transport unit - Soft or Hard, speed, amphibious capabilities etc. for the time the unit is transporting it. The Transport unit cannot be given a Commanded Order to move (if it is carrying Recce) it can only use the Recce movement numbers (e.g. multiples of its move based on the Recce movement dice roll).
e.g. if a RSU A/C moves at 20cm pm but double that on a road, and the Recce Scout it is carrying has rolled a 6 on a d6 (so gets up to 3 moves), the A/C can move a total of 60cm (all at once) or 120cm if all the move is on a road.

A Recce unit must choose whether to undertake a Move or a Reconnaissance action at the start of the Command phase, regardless of whether it is in a transport/RSU or not.
If it chooses a Reconnaissance action it cannot move - even if transported by an RSU or other Transport.
If at the start of the turn the Recce unit chooses to move, it must throw a d:6 to establish the number of moves it can make. It moves at the speed of the RSU or Transport multiplied by the number of moves based upon its movement roll.

In your scenarios below:
1). Yes, it can dismount with no penalty and no command order is required. The RSU or Transport unit must then be commanded separately if you want it to undertake other actions (move, shoot, assault etc). Movement (as such) of the Transport unit is irrelevant as each game turn is c.30mins of elapsed time. But see 2 below.
Technically the Recce move is a single move (not specifically broken up into its component parts as distinct moves) - however, I see no reason that it would not be possible to move a % of a move at the transport speed and the remainder at the speed of the Recce Scout unit ... proportionately. Moving in actual moves makes that all a lot simpler.

2). No. It can only move the number of Recce moves it achieved on the dice - but at the speed of the RSU/Transport unit that is carrying it. So if it rolled and achieved 3 turns of movement, and has already moved 1 turn in the RSU/Transport it can dismount and move another 2 moves on foot. But it can only Move, not undertake a Recce action.

3). Yes, as the RSU or Transport has in effect become the Recce unit, for the turn it is transporting it. This might seem odd, but in a situation where the Infantry Scout needs to move faster than on foot, but enter some Mountainous terrain once it arrives (for example), it would require the Infantry Scouts to be able to dismount from their transport. However, as the Recce has moved (at any point in a game turn) it cannot then undertake a Recce action that turn, it can only do that in the next game turn.

In some ways transporting your Recce Scout in an RSU is not achieving the best results, as the RSU (on its own) can in effect move any number of multiple Commanded moves and then, in the next game turns, convert itself into its Recce mode and function like a Recce unit.

If you want your Recce Scout units to move faster, you buy a transport unit (jeep, motorcycle, truck, half-track) and use that to transport the Recce.
If you want a unit that can move forwards under command and undertake a Recce action (next game turn) then RSU's on their own are better.
If you want to protect your Recce Scout unit, with close support, then transporting a Recce Scout unit in an RSU is a good idea.

However, it is impossible to set up a position where a Recce unit or an RSU can move and undertake a Recce action in the same Game Turn.

I hope that this all makes sense?
« Last Edit: 17 June 2019, 02:59:36 PM by Big Insect » Logged
T-Square
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« Reply #14 on: 17 June 2019, 04:16:00 PM »

Makes sense.  Thank you.
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