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Author Topic: RECCE  (Read 225 times)
ianrs54
Playtester
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« Reply #15 on: 16 May 2019, 02:22:21 PM »

WE did have local ruling that the modifiers only applied to the closest HQ/CO

IanS
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Dr Dave
Major
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Posts: 605



« Reply #16 on: 16 May 2019, 02:42:24 PM »

Mark, trying to deal with each of the points you made:

Not all Recce has radios
 - but the vast majority would do. If no radios then how do they communicate over vast distances compared to their move distance?

They do not want to be heard talking into them that close to the enemy
 - But they’re probably in a vehicle! Are there going to optional rules for engine noise and acoustic arrays?
All [those problems are] reflected in the 6 required to achieve a spot
 - So it is very unlikely

If the unit 'acquiring' the enemy in the BUA is an Infantry unit and the target enemy is also Infantry unit, it must be within 5 cm to do so
 - But you cannot move within 5 cm of an enemy unit

Recce are no worse at spotting enemy units than other unit
 - Oh yes they are! Recce needs a 6 to spot. Any other unit spots automatically when within 20 cm and can then shoot. One is 17% chance to spot, the other is 100% chance. In the latter case it spots them so well it can fire at them.

It's the whole concept of Recce that seems to be being misunderstood here
 - Very much agree with you here. You have interpreted recce as meaning a definitive sighting of an enemy unit. That is NOT the use of recce in the battlespace. As already pointed out recce is about providing information (both right and wrong) – it just has to be believed to be acted upon and provide a commander with a right or wrong picture of the battlespace. The commander has to trust it, not mark it for accuracy – how could he? Recce provides information on the enemy positions - where is IS, where he ISN'T, state of the ground etc... everything.

The enemy AFV that can 'see' an enemy unit automatically at 10 cm from the BUA it is in, is quite possibly taking a punt at the fact that it saw some movement or at least thought it did.
 - But now it is such a vague punt that it then opens fire on it and can direct mortars on to it, in exactly the same way as if the unit in the BUA had opened fire? That's not a "punt".

Recce needs to be much more sure of the information it is passing back.
 - No it doesn’t! “Don’t say anything in case were wrong!” Not true. I've never heard a recce officer suggest that - not ever. Never. Really NEVER. Recce provides information, and information is information.

I'd argue that at the real life equivalent of 10 cm on a battlefield - I'd defy anybody spot infantry dug-in and not shooting back from within a town
 - Now this is weird – in BKC4 the infantry in the BUA can be shot at from within 10 cm.

The new rules make it less easy and IMHO more realistic – sorry but I strongly disagree.


Recce is about information, with the new system the rules assume that the HQ is in a position the judge the recce information – it never is – it cannot be. For right or wrong (and it doesn’t matter which) it just has to be trusted. Recce has become next to useless. As Jimbo94's scenario pointed out. It's better to spend the points on a shooty unit and not bother with recce at all. In an attack defence game instead of a recce kubelwagen it's better to have two more Heer infantry platoons. They are tougher, probably faster, and can shoot at dug-in Ruskies when the recce probably can't even see them. That has to be less realistic surely?


« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 03:47:37 PM by Dr Dave » Logged

“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Dr Dave
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« Reply #17 on: 16 May 2019, 03:01:30 PM »

 Wink
« Last Edit: 16 May 2019, 03:58:45 PM by Dr Dave » Logged

“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Cross698
Second Lieutenant
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Posts: 96


« Reply #18 on: 16 May 2019, 04:24:23 PM »

It does seem hard, but RECCE can do more in terms of "spotting or reconnitre" seems relatively easy to expose hdden forces and or minefields. LOS to the terrain piece which for the Germans is a 25cm circle and it is calculated as per the v2 system of distance up to 60cm (1 always a fail) This is very useful, i accept that the +1 is more difficult, but to be fair, I think it was too easy in v2.
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Dr Dave
Major
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Posts: 605



« Reply #19 on: 16 May 2019, 04:36:00 PM »

It does seem hard, but RECCE can do more in terms of "spotting or reconnitre" seems relatively easy to expose hdden forces and or minefields. LOS to the terrain piece which for the Germans is a 25cm circle and it is calculated as per the v2 system of distance up to 60cm (1 always a fail) This is very useful, i accept that the +1 is more difficult, but to be fair, I think it was too easy in v2.

It certainly was easier - to use the rule and get the +1.

Whether it was toooo easy or not is harder to tell. It certainly is much harder now because recce needs to spot an enemy. Often this will be very hard. But again I come back to the issue of non-recce being able to shoot at units the recce cannot see? This is described as an “abstraction”, but it’s more of a major discrepancy.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
Jimbo94
Cadet

Posts: 23


« Reply #20 on: 17 May 2019, 01:24:43 PM »

In My Game last night in 7 turns the 222 and the BA10 managed to improve the HQ CV buy +1 once each
Slightly less than one in 6 success
Not worth the hassle of learning the extra rules and in game terms not worth the points
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Big Insect
Lieutenant
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Posts: 212


« Reply #21 on: 18 May 2019, 09:45:38 AM »

Interesting observation Jimbo

I must admit that wasn't our experience in our play-tests, but maybe we are used to using our Recce differently as we have played this ruling or variants of it for so long (as house rules) that we know the best way to get the best out of our recce. E.G. I tend to embed them within an offensive formation and use them to spot enemy in the open where possible.

Going back to Dr Dave's various points ... I can see all your arguments - there are many instances of Recce sending back runners, using flags, passing messages via other friendly units etc. to communicate with their command infrastructures. Radios got more common and more efficient as the war progresses yes, but so did interception of radio messages.

I come back to a fundamental principle, which is that it should be hard for a Recce unit to spot low-profile targets in a BUA - that's my stand-point.
We could add a modifier that adds a + if the unit is shooting or has shot the previous move, or has moved at all, but again I am trying to avoid inter-turn book keeping where possible.

Cheers
Mark
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Cross698
Second Lieutenant
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Posts: 96


« Reply #22 on: 18 May 2019, 10:14:52 AM »

If it has fired it becomes visible to all anyway, so why not to RECCE, so it should be a factor - enemy is visible +1?
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Dr Dave
Major
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Posts: 605



« Reply #23 on: 18 May 2019, 11:53:15 AM »

I think have to stand by the point that recce shouldn’t need to see the enemy. “The area ahead of us is clear” type information is very useful - but I can only speak from the standpoint of conversations I have had with serving officers who have seen combat. BUT, I can see that people thought v2 was too simplistic and easy to get the +1. That recce need a roll to spot what others can see automatically cannot make sense.  Shocked

I’d be inclined to use v2 with:
Good recce - normal, as v2
Average recce - 1 or 2 always fails
Poor recce - 1-3 always fails.
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“In war possession of ground is nine tenths of the law,
And the infantry are the bailiff’s men”
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