ECW project using For King and Parliament

Started by paulr, 04 April 2018, 06:58:41 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

paulr

I'm looking at an English Civil War project using the new For King and Parliament rules.

One of the key decisions I'm going to have to make is how to base the foot battalia.

FK&P sensibly has 5 different types of foot battalia:

  • Pure Pike
  • Pike Heavy
  • Standard (1 Pike: 2 Shot)
  • Shot Heavy
  • Commanded Shot
Each type also has large and small variants, potentially giving 15 possible combinations.

I definitely want to differentiate between units with Pikes and Commanded Shot (as they represent less men in the rules)
What I am not sure about is if I need to differentiate between the pike ratios and/or large and small units :-\

These details will of course be shown on labels on the unit but do I need to different mixes and numbers of figures as well?
The challenge is that the more I want to differentiate the more figures I will potentially need

There appear to be at least three different approaches to basing for the Pike and Shot era

Component basing with each unit made up of multiple small components of a few figures each



Module basing with each unit made up of about 3 modules with multiple figures on each module



Unit basing with a unit being a single base with all figures on it



Each approach has pros and cons and each obviously works well for those who use them

Component basing gives maximum flexibility with the minimum number of figures

Module basing gives some flexibility but will require extra figures.
My current thinking on module basing would be to have 'fixed' shot wings and use one of three different types of central module; pike heavy, standard, shot heavy. I could also use a complete shot module to make commanded shot units. I'm not sure how I would show large or small units using this approach. This is further complicated by a desire to have mainly single colour regiments

Unit basing gives minimal flexibility and so maximum figures, it is simplest and does allow for mini-diorama basing

I'm in the fortunate position of starting with a clean slate and can select the approach that best meets my needs/wants

I think the key question is how important is it to show the pike to shot ratios with figures. I think this should to some extent be linked to what commanders on the field could discern and depictions in contemporary art.

My current thinking is torn between module basing to show the ratios and unit basing which doesn't show the ratios.
One option with unit basing is to vary the ratios slightly to add variety between bases but for the unit labels to define the actual ratios

Members of the forum, if you have read this far thanks for your patience, I look forward to your thoughts

Lord Lensman of Wellington
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2022 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2023 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Leman

Couple of points:

1. Single colour regiments were probably not that common, especially away from the main Oxford and Essex armies. Also most coloured coats were worn by both sides. I haven't yet bought the rules, but have been following Simon's blog on this and he uses a separate module for the colour party, which he places behind the pike block, which would make similar 'uniformed' units more flexible.

2. In the Polemos ECW rules it is suggested that pike heavy units have the front of the pike figures right at the front of the base, pike light have the back  of the figures aligned with the back of the base and 1:1 have them in the middle, with the front of the pike figures aligned with the front of the two shot groups. In all cases there would be a gap between the front of the base and the front of the shot and the back of the base and the rear of the shot.  Apologies, but I don't have a picture to show this.
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

Steve J

My plan is to go down the Module route, with each base being 30mm square and three per module. It allows me to use them for Baroque as well as mixing stuff up, such as Attached Shot with Cavalry.

Westmarcher

Currently considering ECW (again) or LoA. For basing, flexibility is the key; therefore modular or component. What new rules will you be playing in 5 to 10 years time? I like the idea of a separate command base. Been thinking about this for years (think I first saw this in the Gå På rules) - positioning can be used to designate command status, etc. I see Simon (co-author) and Mollinary have used this in the YouTube video. If I do start collecting ECW armies again, I think I will standardise all P&S units as shown on the YouTube video and devise a simple marker system to show the different proportions of Pike to Shot. Link to YouTube video:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssAOTqVJxk&t=133s
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

Steve J

I'm going down the Monmouth Rebellion & Glorious Revolution route using the simply wonderful LoA range, with a few ECW bits'n'pieces thrown in with the Scythemen for good measure. Some spare ECW & LoA figures may feature together as County Militia units.

paulr

Thanks for the feedback

A thought that occurred to me overnight is that as well as the large and small variants there are also three different levels of military experience, So if I wanted show that by the quality of the drill of the figures as I did for my AWI militias then there are 45 possibilities :o X_X

I'm tending to using a 'standard' unit with some variation to make them interesting. Some with more pike, some with more muskets, some in good order, some with less ordered ranks...
The label would then identify the pike:musket ratio, unit size and military experience.
If I base my armies on a particular battle I'll use the actual units to guide the mix and placement of figures

Single colour regiments, I'm looking at having colour themed regiments with a more campaign look. So a green regiment will have a lot of figures wearing green but will have a mix of other, mainly drab, coloured clothing as well

The Polemos approach with pike is an interesting one, perhaps it could be used with a modular approach with spacers to move the pike to one of the three positions
Lord Lensman of Wellington
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2022 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2023 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Bunny

I am keen on these rules, having played To The Strongest.

But as I like Impvtus and Baroque and Pike and Shote,  I will be going with single based units of 120mm frontage (Baroque).  It enables lots of 10mm figures and even a little scenic display on the bases.

paulr

Baroque is one of the reasons we are looking at 12cm wide bases
They also will work work well with FK&P using a 15cm grid :)

I'm definitely tempted by the scope to add scenic displays on unit bases :-\
Lord Lensman of Wellington
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2022 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2023 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Leman

Forgive me for seeming a bit dozy, but isn't three (or four, with separate command) 40mm bases more flexible than one 120mm base. Lots of figures means lots of glue, means more chance of warping as well. Then there is the opportunity to field different units with the same figures - just change the command base, which can be shallower than the other bases and thus less intrusive.
The artist formerly known as Dour Puritan!

Westmarcher

Quote from: Leman on 07 April 2018, 08:23:26 AM
Forgive me for seeming a bit dozy, but isn't three (or four, with separate command) 40mm bases more flexible than one 120mm base. Lots of figures means lots of glue, means more chance of warping as well. Then there is the opportunity to field different units with the same figures - just change the command base, which can be shallower than the other bases and thus less intrusive.
[/b]

Yes. And I agree with the idea of smaller, less intrusive command base.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

paulr

It is more flexible, but if you have colour themed units then some of that flexibility could be lost :-\

If I go with modules then a shallower command module makes a lot of sense :-bd
Lord Lensman of Wellington
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2022 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2023 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Steve J

Baroque does mention having a unit made up of 3 bases, as this gives lots of flexibility to the formation of units. This is a big bonus for me.

paulr

One of the really useful things about this sort of open, supportive discussion is that it helps me understand my thinking

One of the advantages of the modular approach is that the modules can be used with rule sets that have the components of the battalia fight separately, e.g. DBR
Given the level of game I and our group like to play this is an advantage we are unlikely to make use of :-\

The big advantage of the modular approach would be that by:

  • removing the pike and adding a couple of spacers you convert a pike & shot battalia into commanded shot
  • or conversely add pike to a commanded shot unit and get a pike & shot battalia
  • you could mix shot from a couple of regiments to show commanded shot from a couple of different regiments
  • removing a module from a unit of horse would covert it into what FK&P term a small unit...

It is still possible to be creative with the basing if the modules are deep enough :-\

As I've written this post I've moved from slightly favouring unit basing to favouring module basing :-\
Lord Lensman of Wellington
2018 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2022 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!
2023 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Norm

08 April 2018, 06:23:18 AM #13 Last Edit: 08 April 2018, 06:31:03 AM by Norm
I like unit basing visually and it significantly helps over the course of a game with movement management, since you are in effect moving roughly a third of the bases you normally would. This benefit is enhanced with the plonk down nature of grids (great for bad back types).

Working with a smaller scale and older eyes, I tend to find that from normal gaming distances, I need to instantly recognise what a unit is and what type of weapons it has. This is less of a problem with horse and musket as everyone is marching around with a musket, but get into other periods of bill, pike, spear, sword. light / medium / heavy armour and it becomes more difficult and being able to add distinction to unit basing helps significantly with that problem - and of course here with the musket / pike ratio thing, that is just as relevant

The downside (as a hex user) is that  many of my hills have a rounded character and the larger base can look strange on them, with either one or both ends of the unit hanging in the air and fitting them amongst buildings or showing column for road movement visually distracts, though can be got around.

Having gone down one route, re-based and then re-based back part way through, I would recommend a temporary basing while you make sure you are happy with what you are doing.

pierre the shy

Quote from: Norm on 08 April 2018, 06:23:18 AM
Having gone down one route, re-based and then re-based back part way through, I would recommend a temporary basing while you make sure you are happy with what you are doing.

Good advice thanks Norm....we have gone down that route by using cardboard unit sized bases for our test games and seem to be happy with the modular method of basing.

Very happy with the new FK&P rules and we have got amazing support for them from the rules authors.....for 10 quid they are best investment I have made for a while  8)

Sorting out what figures we are going to use now.
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.